Calling all Birthers

[BadenP]

To all you poor misguided dupes who allowed Trump steer you down his pathetic little smear campaign, you guys need to get better informed instead of sitting there with egg on your face. Your unfounded and pathetic smears of the POTUS and this issue leave you all looking sad and pathetic now that this issue is finally put to rest.

[The Blancmange]

 

To sum it up, he's "native born", but not "natural born".

This is the poster's view of what the law should be, not what it actually is. The 14th Amendment does not make this distinction, nor do any other relevant provisions of law. The only recognized categories are citizenship through birth (of which there are several sub-categories, two of which are being born on US Soil and being born to a citizen parent)and "naturalized" citizens who had to go through the naturalization process. Discussion of whether one or both parents of a child born in the U.S. are citizens is superfluous. Even a so-called "anchor baby" qualifies.

There simply is no valid, articuable theory that a child, born to a citizen parent, in the United States, is not a natural born citizen. (This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[packsaddle]

BadenP, I wouldn't give them the freedom to blame Trump for that which they themselves are responsible. Trump has only himself to blame for this nonsense. Same for the others.

[BadenP]

pack

 

This whole issue is now moot with the release of Obamas birth certificate and the fact that those who were dumb enough to believe idiots like Trump do deserve to be chastized for their vile attacks based on FALSE information. Yes Trump deserves all the criticism he is now going to receive and he can kiss the chance ever even being considered for president up in flames forever. Don't you and others here know that this issue was investigated years ago when Obama was just being considered as a potential candidate for the Senate, and again for president. No one gets elected to federal office these days without first being thoroughly vetted. Wake up you Birthers to reality and not the fantasy worlds you live in.

[BS-87]

"There simply is no valid, articuable theory that a child, born to a citizen parent, in the United States, is not a natural born citizen."

 

 

You are entitled to the opinion that the 14th amendment limits the categories of citizenship to "natural born" and "naturalized". It also happens to be the belief held by the SCOTUS for the time being.

 

However, there is a valid opinion that the 14th amendment brought about a third category of "native born" which only requires birth in the United States OR to an American citizen. "Natural born" is not an either or, it requires being born here or in American holdings AND to two citizen parents.

 

Obama is a "native born" citizen who fails to meet the criteria for "natural born" because his father was a British subject.

 

We know that Vattel's defines "natural born citizen" as one who is born within the country and BOTH mother and father were citizens. That's "natural born citizen".

We know that the Constitution says that to be president, you must be a "natural born citizen".

 

We know that the founders used Vattel's Laws of Nations, because it was the standard reference at the time.

 

Under these definitions, and evidence that Vattel's was used, and even possessed by George Washington, and the precise terms used in the Constitution of "natural born citizen, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR by the copy of the COLB that Obama provided above(and Obama's own admissions that his father was Kenyan) that OBAMA IS NOT A "NATURAL BORN CITIZEN" under the Constitutional meaning of the term, and therefore is ineligible to serve.

 

http://www.birthers.org/USC/Vattel.html(This message has been edited by BS-87)

[BadenP]

BS87

 

Give it up already, you are just plain WRONG, and are starting to sound like a broken record. Your interpretation of the Constitution does not agree with all the federal legal experts who determined that Obama was eligible during his vetting process to be President. Sorry to say you are sounding as pathetic as Trump who is now trying to keep a low profile. Time to stop tilting at windmills and get on with your life.

[BS-87]

BadenP -

 

Oh. Ok.

 

I guess since you say I'm wrong I must be wrong.

 

The fact that your argument has no proof or logic and is simply a conclusion that relies on itself as a premise has no bearing on your validity.

 

But since you (the one without and argument or proof) say I (the one with an argument and proof) am wrong, it must be so.

 

 

I have never argued that Obama was born outside the US. And I'm glad to hear you think I'm a broken record because that means I'm consistent, unlike that fool Trump.

[Twocubdad]

From BS-87: "You are entitled to the opinion that the 14th amendment limits the categories of citizenship to "natural born" and "naturalized". It also happens to be the belief held by the SCOTUS for the time being."

 

While it's been 30 years since I sat through Constitutional Law class, I recall that a Supreme Court Ruling trumps the unwritten intent of the framers and prior common law. This then becomes a moot point, right?

 

 

From BadenP: "you are just plain WRONG, and are starting to sound like a broken record"

 

Hmmmm.... You should re-read your last few posts and listen to what they sound like.

 

 

From my own post, about a week ago: "Why doesn't Obama just post his birth certificate and be done with it?"

 

Okay, done.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Politics is a wide variety of things ---- amusement for one.

 

I think it's fun that Trump motivated Obama to cut loose with his birth certificate.

 

What's next on Trump's agenda?

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Beavah]

Yah... hmmm....

 

Reality is strange, eh? Sometimes yeh just can't make this stuff up.

 

Oh, wait. I guess you can!

 

So to be "natural born" and eligible for da presidency, you have to be a child of two citizen parents. God only knows where that leaves us for sperm bank kids or da non-science-initiated equivalent. But's let's take a look historically, eh? Barack Obama is certainly not the first president born to immigrants. In fact, there were six:

 

Andrew Jackson (both parents were immigrants and were NOT citizens at the time of his birth), Thomas Jefferson, James Buchanan, Chester Arthur, Woodrow Wilson, and Herbert Hoover.

 

The interpretation that there is some separate category called "native born" that applies to persons who have one or more immigrant parent is an utter and complete fiction. The constitution even prior to the 14th Amendment never made that distinction, nor was that the common interpretation of international law of the day, which generally applied jus soli. I think perhaps people are mixin' things up with da notion of American nationals. Non-citizen American nationals are folks who are born in some of the smaller territories like American Somoa who do not have at least one U.S. citizen parent.

 

But however this notion got started, it's great for comic relief. Were yeh also abducted by space aliens, BS-87?

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

BS 87

 

Beavah did a very good job explaining why your premise was incorrect. Also you need to understand that before anyone is offered or elected to a federal position with the requirement for a security clearance they are given a very thorough security background investigation where ANY anomalies, such as citizenship, is determined and dealt with very quickly.

As a former federal agent with both top secret and SCI clearances I can tell you firsthand that no stone is left unturned in a persons background, everything is checked and rechecked, especially your citizenship. There is virtually no chance of someone becoming President if there truly was any discrepancy with their citizenship.

 

 

[The Blancmange]

 

However, there is a valid opinion that the 14th amendment brought about a third category of "native born" which only requires birth in the United States OR to an American citizen.

This is truly a fringe belief. I'm reminded of a quote:

 

One person with a fantastic view may be suspected of delusions; two people with the identical view are just oddballs.

- Judge Frank Easterbrook in U.S. v. James, 328 F.3d 953 (7th Cir. 2003)

[CalicoPenn]

I like Skeptic's definition of natural born - it might just make me one of the few folks out there who really are eligible to be President.

 

My birth certificate was filed in Cook County by a Kane County hospital (turns out that Cook County was commonly used as the depository of official records for the collar counties up until the 1970's) and states that I was born in Lake County. Now the only way I could have been born in Lake County is if I were born at home, or in the car on the way to the hospital. Either way, a natural birth.

 

I particularly enjoyed President Obama's smacking down of the "carnival barkers" and the media that are paying attention to the carnival barkers instead of the important issues. I've been waiting for this "American President" moment from Obama for a long time now - I'm hoping this signifies a change in his tactics.

 

And not to worry - the birthers still dodged a bullet. One of the arguments the birthers had was that the certificate that Obama had released prior to this didn't say it was a "Birth Certificate". Nope - never mind that Certification of Live Birth" contains the word Birth, and a derivative of Certificate in it, according to the birthers, it wasn't a "Birth Certificate". Alas, the long form that was released today states that it is a "Certificate of Live Birth". That means, of course, that the birthers, in their infinite stupidity, can still claim that just because it has the words "birth" and "certificate" in it, it isn't a birth certificate because the words are not in that exact order.

 

 

[BS-87]

Beavah is either purposefully misrepresenting what I'm saying or doesn't understand.

 

If two naturalized citizens have a child on US, it will be "natural born"

 

 

I'm also not arguing that the President wasn't vetted for this, he was.

 

However, the current interpretation as it stands is incorrect. I have never called for Obama to be impeached over this, as it would be impossible. I am saying that we need our SCOTUS to analyze this subject again so that it can be clarified, as there is certainly room for confusion and doubt in their current stance.

[The Blancmange]

Does that mean CalicoPenn can never run for Cook County Board President?