Calling all Birthers

[packsaddle]

Really, I read the news that Republican governor Jan Brewer of Arizona has vetoed the 'Birther Bill' as well as the 'Guns on Campus' bill and I began to wonder...are there any forum members who are 'birthers'?

To clarify, are there any forum members who believe that President Obama has either failed to prove his citizenship or believes that he actually is NOT a citizen?

 

Anyway, here's the link to Arizona's 'Birther' bill. I'm not sure where the heck I put MY circumcision certificate...

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/hb2177s.pdf

 

[BS-87]

I'm not a "birther" because I believe our POTUS was born in Honolulu.

 

I do question his eligibility though. This is because he is a "native born citizen" and not a "natural born citizen" as the Constitution requires for the Presidency.

 

The difference is that a "native born citizen" only has to be born on American soil. A "natural born citizen" was defined in the Laws of Nations (which our Founding Fathers referenced often in writing our official federal documents like the Constitution) as someone who is born on the nation's soil to parents who are both citizens of that nation with no other allegiances. Obama's father was a British subject, thus making Obama a "native born" but not a "natural born" citizen.

 

I cannot claim to know the intent of our Founding Fathers, but I'd assume they wished for future Presidents to be born of and raised by two citizen parents with no other foreign loyalties.

 

The argument exists that the 14th amendment to the Constitution makes the "native born" and "natural born" citizenships synonymous, and such is the current court ruling. Our Supreme Court could rule against this previous ruling though.

 

I do think pursuing such a ruling to unseat our President is folly and impossible now. However, this should have been addressed and ruled upon when he was a primary candidate.

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't know what the hub bub is about, its all aboutnot following stupid rules and we already know we get to ignore stupid rules if they get in the way of what needs to be done

 

BTW I hope everybody has a working knowledge of Hyperbole

[Beavah]

Having knowledge of hyperbole is a stupid rule.

 

Honestly, this stuff just leaves me dumbfounded. By any read of any law or precedent the President meets da qualifications. It's really hard not to just lump this "birther" nonsense in with alien abduction.

 

Nice to know that da governor of Arizona has a brain, though. Can't for da life of me figure out why the state would want to spend millions on a completely indefensible legal position. Oh wait... this is Arizona.

 

Da logic that BS-87 uses would exclude the children of military service members who married while overseas but whose children were born and raised in da U.S. It would also exclude children born and raised in da U.S. one of whose parents hold dual citizenship. And a host of other cases, none of which are conscionable.

 

Of course, it would also exclude George Washington and all of da founders, which is why such a strained interpretation is ludicrous even on a strict constructionist basis.

 

Beavah

 

[sherminator505]

One question that I would have for the birthers is: If Barack Obama were not born in Hawaii, how did the grandparents have the bizarre foresight to run a fake birth announcement in the Honolulu newspaper when he was six days old? Were they part of the vast communist-socialist-secret-Muslim-radical-black-Christian cabal that put him into the Presidency?

[SeattlePioneer]

Occasionally I like to tease my liberal friends about this issue a bit, because it tends to drive them NUTZ!

[scoutingagain]

I have to put my faith in the so called, "Republican Dirty Tricksters" or whatever they are called these days. If there was a shred of made up evidence that Obama was not a legitamate candidate, I have to believe there would be a movie about it. Websites don't count.

 

And that doesn't even give credit to the Clintons, who I have no doubt would have put the issue to the courts if they could have during the primaries.

 

SA

[OldGreyEagle]

Back, way back, before anyone had heard of Obama my sister in law was terrified, frazzled and generally gobsmacked that Hillary Clinton, That woman, was going to be president

 

Then the Primaries started and Hillary was doing quite well and then Obama started to come on, Hillary tried everything she could to beat back Obama and came up short. Now, the Clinton's are known to be some pretty tough campaigners and Hillary pretty much thought the Presidency was hers by right. If there was a scandal to be broken, the Clintons would have done it in the primaries. If the Clinton machine could not come up with "birthing dirt" on Obama, it doesnt exist.

 

Here is a thought, how about comming up with an intelligent, well spoken candidate (WHich ever sex they are) who can get their points across easily who explains what they stand for, demonstrates it in their daily life, guides others to do the same and enables us to see the plan? Is that to much to hope for?

[The Blancmange]

 

One question that I would have for the birthers is: If Barack Obama were not born in Hawaii, how did the grandparents have the bizarre foresight to run a fake birth announcement in the Honolulu newspaper when he was six days old?

That, for me, is the most compelling piece of evidence as well. Other than making sure he was someday eligible for the office of President, I can't concive of another reason to have fabricated the announcement at the time. And if they were indeed trying to groom him for President, they chose a very strange path to do so.

[BrentAllen]

CNN: "Developer and reality show host Donald Trump has been pushing the claim that President Obama was not born in the U.S. -- a myth that has dogged the president since he took office..."

 

"...a myth that has dogged the president since he took office..."

 

Read that line above, and give it some thought. I'm sure there are some birthers who think Obama was born outside the US, but I believe many are just using the birther issue as a political hammer on him. If the issue continues to dog Obama and create doubt in the minds of voters, we will continue to hear about it. It's just politics.

 

I watched a program about the 9/11 Truthers on NGC last night. Some of those people are very intelligent, but they deny any evidence that proves their theories wrong. It just leaves you shaking your head. I'm sure some Birthers are the same.

 

I do find it interesting that Obama doesn't produce the long form. Anyone with an ounce of curiosity has to ask why? I also found it interesting when the new Governor said he would produce the birth certificate, and then couldn't, and then said the long form may not exist. I'm guessing he isn't on Obama's Christmas card list anymore. Oh, wait - Obama is Muslim, right?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

BS-87, your requirements would also have excluded McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

 

Beavah, people who were citizens of the US at the time the constitution was adopted didn't need to meet the natural born requirement.

[CalicoPenn]

Under English Common Law, in existence before the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, and something familiar to the framers, a "Natural Born Subject" was a child born in England, including those born of alien parents, unless the child was a child of an ambassador, or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place the child was born. This same rule was in force in all English colonies, including the English colonies in this country.

 

The Founders, being familiar with English Common Law, and knowing the above applied to the colonies, would have likely considered that everyone knew what Natural Born Citizen meant under English Common Law so they wouldn't have to define it any further. I know there are some that would argue that because it was claimed we weren't under English Common Law, that the idea couldn't have come from English Common Law - but that ignores the fact that the Founders picked and chose from amongst a number of different sources to create the Consitution, and wouldn't neccessarily discard all of English Common Law because some parts of it were bad for their situation. Parts of our Constitution come from the ideals of the Iroquois Federation, and we were never under Iroquois law either. Some would argue that under English Common Law, it was natural born subject, not citizen - but that is frankly a semantic argument about whether citizen is a replacement of subject or not.

 

It should also be noted that English Common Law existed long before the Law of Nations treatise - and more importantly, English Common Law was enforceable, the "Law of Nations" was a book containing one man's opinion of how things should be, and not how things really are.

 

So unless someone can prove that Hawaii wasn't a State in 1961, or that Obama's father was an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign country, or that Hawaii was occupied by a hostile force from Kenya, President Obama meets the constitutional definition of Natural Born Citizen.

 

As for George Washington, and all the other Presidents before Martin Van Buren (the first "natural born citizen" to become President) were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. We haven't needed that clause since, well, Martin Van Buren, so we tend to forget about it.

[sherminator505]

In truth, Barack Obama will be born on "the island" about 30 years from now. Everyone knows that!

[packsaddle]

Look fellas, I didn't want to scare them off. I am asking for them to present themselves and maybe even their well-reasoned thoughts to back their opinions.

Besides, my mother sometimes openly expressed the belief that aliens had abducted her son and put me in his place. I was and remain at a loss to prove otherwise.

 

I liken this to my fascination with some racist acquaintances from a while back. These were far worse than the ones in my old Presbyterian church. They remained convinced, privately, that any taint of non-Aryan genetic material automatically doomed the carrier to poor-quality protoplasm (no lie, they actually said this stuff..quietly).

But they were increasingly afraid to express these ideas out loud and preferred to quietly keep the ideas alive by privately teaching their children and any others around to listen. Thing is, they're going to keep those ideas alive a lot longer that way and that is why I'd rather have them express themselves openly and honestly so that reasonable people can respond in a way that the children can hear. It took courage for Republican Rep. Carl Seel to sponsor this legislation and that is about as open as it gets. I would like for others who agree to show equal courage.

 

You guys did give me a bit of a scare though. When I glanced and saw the responses I thought, "Holy Toledo! There are LOTS of birthers out there!" But really, so far it looks like only one person and that looks more like 'latent birther tendencies' or something.

[Beavah]

Dang. Missed da opportunity to freak packsaddle out by coming up with a long-winded and furry rationalization for why Barack Obama isn't qualified to be either president or a space alien.

 

Beavah