Schools & Scouting

[83Eagle]

Well, out here in flyover country the school buildings are used by both BSA as well as by a local church which holds Sunday service there while it raises funds to build a building.

 

The school principal is a huge advocate of scouting and has been more than accommodating in letting us do recruitment during school hours.

[OldGreyEagle]

All confused here, if I remember right, a School, or any public building may allow speficic "discriminitory groups" Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Fellowsip of Christan Athletes, a Wiccan gathering, any group who wishes to use the building may use the building as long as they follow the prescribed manner to reserve and use the room. If the public building does not allow private groups to meet there, thats ok too as long as there is no exemptions

[BadenP]

OGE

You speak words of wisdom about the use of school buildings and are 100% correct.

 

SP

IMO, Eamonn is one of the most down to earth and realistic scouters in this forum who I agree with most of the time, except about Venturing, lol, your criticism of his posts, if thats what is was, was totally inaccurate and uncalled for

[Beavah]

Yah, OGE is right, eh? Of course just because that's the way things should be done doesn't mean it's the way things really are done in lots of places. School officials and school boards and the local folks who elect 'em often really want to discriminate against some and not others.

 

If he and his scouts refuse to support the PTA (or PTO) then they are basically refusing to support groups that help their public schools. That's cutting off a nose to spite the face.

 

Or it's voting their own interest. By and large, when a school or school group chooses to discriminate against one part of its population in terms of access to school facilities, that part of the population in turn refuses to support school bond issues and millages that pay for those facilities.

 

That's why it's extremely short-sighted for a school to opt for a "closed forum". It just angers their constituents, because you have to lock out the PTO and da summer band camp along with the scouts.

 

So da better way to go as a school is always to welcome everyone to use the facilities that they paid for. Scouts, Wiccans, the local church, the Red Cross Emergency shelter, the Buddhist ladies' quilting club, whatever. That way everyone in your area has goodwill toward the schools and is more likely to support 'em at the ballot box.

 

When school officials opt for "closed forums" and locked, empty buildings, that really is cuttin' off their community to spite themselves.

 

Beavah

 

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Yep. Hence "diversity."

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So diveristy is bad? When did that happen? I could be misunderstanding and I do that Alot!

 

What is wrong with " Scouts, Wiccans, the local church, the Red Cross Emergency shelter, the Buddhist ladies' quilting club, whatever" using a public building that all the people in those groups paid for using the prescribed method for reserving the room?

[Eamonn]

"What is wrong with " Scouts, Wiccans, the local church, the Red Cross Emergency shelter, the Buddhist ladies' quilting club, whatever" using a public building that all the people in those groups paid for using the prescribed method for reserving the room?"

 

I think, I don't pretend to know!

But talking with people in the area where I live who are in charge of schools and school buildings the fear that they have is once they open their doors to one group, they really have a hard time saying no to any group.

While I don't see much of a public outcry about the Buddhist ladies' quilting club, there are groups out there that are just not nice. These groups are of course welcome to think what they like, meet and as long as they don't cross the line and do something illegal. - Why shouldn't they be allowed to use public buildings?

I don't see that this has anything to do with diversity.

As for goodwill?

The local newspapers around here would have a field day if a school district were to allow a bunch of Koow-kluckers to rent a school building and turn up in their fitted sheets.

We might not like to hear it but there are people out there who view the BSA with its policies on atheists and homosexuals as being in the same boat as the Koow-kluckers.

We can't claim to have real diversity as long as there is discrimination in place.

 

I do think if my kid attended a school where the PTA sponsored a youth group, no matter how wonderful it might be that discriminated against left handed kids and left handed parents,I'd be upset. Being as both OJ and I are both left handed.

I know this sounds silly.

But is it any different than sponsoring a group that discriminates against others who are not doing anything illegal?

Ea

 

[SR540Beaver]

I believe we have 31 Packs in our District. The gentleman who is our Troop Committee Chair is also a Cubmaster. His Pack is the last one still chartered to a PTA and he is working to get our Troop's Charter (Methodist Church) to charter the Pack.

[Beavah]

Yah, Eamonn, I think that's a decision that's up to the PTA, eh? Wonderful thing, democracy. Yeh get to have different rules in different places because the circumstances and local mores are different.

 

Da issue here, though, strikes me as being fundamentally different. While the discrimination issue may play a part, da real issue is not understanding the charter relationship. Now some of this may be just that PTA's have a much, much higher turnover of leadership than any other sponsors. So there's not usually much institutional memory in da average PTA.

 

But da second thing is that the BSA tends to play coy about insurance and other issues, rather than being up-front and honest sharing the facts and contracts. To my mind, that's just wrong, eh? Poor business practice, poor treatment of customers, poor ethics. We all know that by and large DE's never really make the rounds to IH's every year, and when they do, they aren't always forthcoming. There are reasons why the BSA plays coy, a lot havin' to do with institutional culture and fears. They're all bunk and balderdash.

 

We see on da forums how often even really active volunteers don't understand da charter relationship, respective responsibilities and legal/insurance issues. So it's no surprise that a CO with as high a turnover in leadership as a PTA doesn't understand.

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

Take atheism as an example. Government prevents schools from having a role in religion and prayer. In effect government enforces a religion free zone in schools.

 

Complete hogwash.

 

Can students pray in school? Yes, if they want to. They can also NOT pray if they want to. Their choice.

Can government schools tell students to pray or not pray? No. It's unconstitutional for the government to tell people to pray or not pray, or to compose prayers for schoolchildren.

 

The above is a short summary, and clearly supports religious freedom, NOT a "religion free zone".

 

THIS would be a religion-free zone:

Can students pray in school? No.

 

Let me know if the above ever happens, because it is both unconstitutional and unenforceable.

[Eamonn]

Beavah,

I agree whole heartedly about the poor job we as an organization do with educating CO's.

I also agree that local circumstances play into what is and what isn't acceptable.

While I have never been involved in Scouting in San Francisco, I think it might be a lot different than being involved here in SW-PA.

 

I do think that some people in our organization tend to think that when another group thinks that the BSA is not for them because of the God and or the gay policy that the other group is wrong.

I don't believe this is the case.

My feeling is that we have made our bed and we should lay in it.

There might be reasons why the BSA is unwilling to change.

I think that no one knows what the repercussions might be if we did change.

Ea.

[OldGreyEagle]

As long as teachers give tests, there will be prayers in schools, public or otherwise(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[SeattlePioneer]

 

 

 

My point was that ALL of these, Scouting included, are examples of diversity.

 

Indeed, I found the suggestion that the PTA itself is likely a qualifying organization for purposes of the Federal law assuring BSA of non discriminatory access to schools.

 

If a school has a PTA and allows the PTA to use school facilities to promote membership and policies, BSA is entitled to the same access I suggest.

 

I have one Cub pack in my district which folded recently in part because of the outright hostility of the Principal, teachers and PTA. Perhaps we should go back and make a demand for exactly the same access as is given to the PTA.

 

 

And there are numerous situations where a child or adult who initiates a prayer in school will have his mouth stopped by teachers or administrators. I would say that there is a definite bias against religion or prayer in public schools even when that is freely initiated by students.

 

And I would further say that keeping public schools a religion free zone is the normative value of public schools. It is what is preferred by teachers and administrators even if children may violate those norms by initiating a prayer on their own from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skeptic]

From my perspective, BSA is on much firmer ground on the spiritual issue, as its removal basically makes BSA just another youth group. The idea that you can allow the small minority of non spiritual people to be members (assuming they are open about their beliefs) is counter to the very foundation of Scouting.

 

The other other issue is more difficult, as it is something that really should simply not be on the table. That is why I continue to feel the decision should be the CO's, as it is their unit. Those that might allow it would likely remain very small, or simply fade away, in my opinion (again, making the assumption that somehow it is an "avowed" individual). When push comes to shove, no matter what the non involved PC opinions are, when confronted directly, most would quietly find a reason to remove their child from the group, or at least I feel that is the likely outcome. But, similar responses would likely happen with other "avowals" of generally uncomfortable life choices and interactions with those individuals, whether as leaders, or simply direct contact.

 

But, as we have said, we are not going to solve the issue here. And continuing to rehash it is not particularly useful. At some point, hopefully, the Gay issue will evolve, just as the "Negro" issue did, and other less noted conflicts within the outreach. I fully expect BSA to incorporate fully coed groups sooner than later, but with the choice of all of one gender, or mixed.

 

These are just opinions and observations from close to 50 years in the program. Others will differ; and that is their right.

[CalicoPenn]

How did we get from the PTA not sponsoring units to schools not allowing Scouts to use the schools? They're two different animals.

 

PTAs and PTOs exist for one reason - to support the school and the kids in the school. Any fundraising they do is for the benefit of the schools, which benefits the kids. They might be helping to buy new playground or gym equipment, or books for the library, or funding a teacher institute continuing ed program. Many PTAs and PTOs have supported Cub Scout/Boy Scout units because they see it as supporting the kids. Should they choose not to recharter because of fears that if they don't maintain a vigilant eye on the leaders and the leaders do something that could threaten their own existence, I think we need to respect that.

 

But hopefully the unit can find someone new to sponsor them - and still meet in the school. At one time, being sponsored by a PTA or PTO made it easier to get access to the schools. If a Cub Pack was sponsored by the PTA, it was a PTA program and therefore seen to be school related. Schools tended to be far more receptive to allowing school related programs and generally restricted access to only school related issues.

 

With the passage of federal laws that took away more and more local control of access to facilities, there just isn't the need anymore for a PTA to be a middleman in gaining access to the schools.