Gay marriage backing

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So SeattlePioneer, does this mean you're against gay marriage because it would affect your non-marriage?

[packsaddle]

If SeattlePioneer is making the claim that his decision not to marry was (is) the best rational decision for him (which, I think, IS what he claims), I salute his approach and I see no evidence to dispute him.

[Mr. Boyce]

The viewpoint not being represented here is the social perspective, the value to society of marriage as a social institution uniting families.

 

Taking it simply at the individual level means the discussion is lacking completeness. Or else it's an intentional rhetorical tactic.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

As marriage is a civil right under US law, societal effects would only come into play if they meet the compelling state interest standard. Judging by how little e.g. Massachusetts has changed with gay marriage for years, I think it would be difficult to argue that there's much of anything compelling enough to limit people's civil rights.

[Oak Tree]

Except that it [no-fault divorce] did, by profoundly changing the culture and expectations of those in the culture.

 

But the divorce rate started falling when we got up to nine states with no-fault divorce. And as more and more states adopted it, the divorce rate kept falling. (Sheesh, doesn't everyone pay close attention to the links I post?)

 

---

 

Mr. Boyce, you may be correct that we haven't been focusing on the overall societal impact. Do you believe that allowing gay marriage will cause families to stop uniting? How would you measure this?

 

Perhaps you'd expect to see more divorces? More kids raised by single mothers? Fewer marriages, with a marriage rate falling faster in states that have gay marriage than in those that don't?

 

I looked up the first one for the first state to approve gay marriage. Massachusetts approved same-sex marriages in 2004. Since that time their divorce rate has fallen significantly. In the five years 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003, it looks like the divorce rate averaged around 2.5 divorces per 1000 people. Starting in 2004 it fell fairly sharply, all the way down to 1.8 in 2009. That's something like a 25%+ drop in the divorce rate, to the lowest in the nation (and substantially below the next state, Pennsylvania, at 2.3). It certainly doesn't look like families started falling apart there.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/st_DIVORCE_20100813.html

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2010/04/09/2010-mass-divorce-rate-down-after-gay-marriage/

 

Just curious about what you think is going to happen. Feel free to find something out there to back up the claim.

[BrentAllen]

I wouldn't argue that gay marriage will affect the divorce rate - I would argue that it would affect the marriage rate. If people see marriage as meaningless due to an "anything goes" attitude for marriage in the country, then more will choose not to marry.

 

The marriage rate has been dropping, which may be the reason the divorce rate is also dropping - fewer marriages to begin with. We also have many more women having births out of wedlock - that number is really scary.

 

The author here thinks the marriage rate is dropping due to the economy. That could be, or it could be due to gay marriage being legalized. http://divorce.clementlaw.com/marriage/marriage-rates-down-less-couples-wed-due-to-economy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NewYorkDivorceAndFamilyLawBlog+%28New+York+Divorce+Report%29

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

We have a new form of "marriage" these days. It's marriage for life and it's not voluntary. Gays will contibnue to be excluded from this new marriage.

 

It's marriage based of child custody and child support laws.

 

Every time a child is born a new marriage is created. It's a marriage enforced by the courts and it's one only one party needs to say "I do," by invoking the courts to force the other parent to do something.

 

You can't get divorced from this marriage, you are stuck with it for 18-21 years, if not for life. It may well be that as Social Security and Medicare collapse in the decades to come, courts will decide that paqrties to this marriage owe each other more than child support, and start issuing orders to support an indigent "spouse" when they can't work.

 

 

Gays will continue to be excluded from this kind of marriage by and large, since absent adoption that wont be anteing up by having children.

 

 

[packsaddle]

SeattlePioneer, if you're implying that gays can't have children...nonsense! It happens all the time and it requires just about the same biological realities that it does for everyone else.

Or...as Paul Ehrlich put it, "People can be produce in vast quantities by unskilled labor who enjoy their work." I add...even if they're gay.

[Scoutfish]

" I looked at the wreckage no fault divorce laws were causing in the 1970s and said NO THANKS! "

 

Nah, you have it soooo wrong! THose marrages were doomed anyways based on the attitudes and the commitment level( or lack of) on the part of those married.

 

For example, me and my wife have at least 3 sbig stupid fights a year. And yeahm, they are big, they are stupid , and afterward, we wonder how we even had a fight over something sooo petty to begin with. Maybe we are both hardheaded and won't be the first to back down. Add to the fact we both have a touch of smartass in the mix...and it doesn't help either.

 

But we understand that we do not have to agree on everything. WE understand that we will have different ideas, opinions, and thoughts about some things.

 

WE also realize that even though it's a 50/50 partnership, it takes 100 % effort from each of us>

 

WE understaood the meaning of the vows that said for richer or poorer and for sickness or health.

 

Too many people jump into marrage too fast, with too little pre thought. I met my wife, became her rriend, then her best6 riend, trhen we dated for over 4 yars before we got engaged. WE knew each other and didn't jump into marrage hastily.

 

WE knoiw it is work.

 

No fault marrage will not cheapen a marrage at all, but gives an easy out scapegoat to those who want all the perks without the work or effort to get or maintain them.

 

NC is a no fault state, yet after 16 years, I am still married even though almost all of my wife and I's friends who married before or around the same time we did are divorced..married again, and about to divorce again.

 

Laws do not cheapen maragges or commitments...peoples attitudes do.

 

But, I am not saying that you are wrong for not getting married. If it's not your thing, I also think you did great by not doing it.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Packsaddle,

 

 

 

I suppose even the courts will draw the line at enforcing a relationship between a woman and her turkey baster, or whatever.

 

 

Men are regularly levied for child support, but that doesn't apply to women who patronize sperm banks. If it did, the sperm banks would dry up. The right of women for access to sperm must not be infringed, apparently.

 

Interesting the exceptions made by the law.

[evmori]

SeattlePioneer, if you're implying that gays can't have children...nonsense! It happens all the time and it requires just about the same biological realities that it does for everyone else.

 

I would really be interested to see how a gay male couple reproduces. Ditto for a female gay couple. Sure the gay male couple can adopt, but they can't have children. And while a gay female couple can have children, they can't have each others children.

[packsaddle]

Ed, I didn't qualify the statement the way you did. But if you really want to 'see' this, I suggest that you can find a large assortment of online videos to provide graphic details. And by all means, feel free to use the computer at your workplace to do this.

[acco40]

I thought the vast majority of Scouters would already have this information but as a public service ...

 

It is really difficult for either straight/gay or if you prefer hetero/homo-sexual males to have children.

 

It is fairly easy for most straight/gay females to have children.

 

I think most can figure that one out.

[Horizon]

acco40:

 

It took my two gay male friends less than one year to have a child, once they decided to have one. They filed the paperwork with the appropriate groups, paid the attorneys, and have a beautiful baby boy that I hope to lead in Boy Scouts someday.

 

It took my wife and I over 6 years to have our second son, once we decided on the second due to 5 miscarriages and a 9 month pregnancy.

 

 

[evmori]

Horizon,

 

You two gay male friends didn't have a child. They adopted one. Huge difference.