Gay marriage backing

[Oak Tree]

Ok, if not talking about personal habits, how about this? My wife occasionally helps out with the troop. Stops by to bring things in response to my urgent calls about things I forgot, or even plans to help out with a training session or something. I've met the spouses for all of the ASMs, and so have most of the boys, I'm sure. Should you have to keep it a secret?

[Scoutfish]

AS long as you do not tell the boys you were kissing the ASM's....it should be okay!

 

Point being, the only time anything with any kind of sexual nature should ever be discussed would be if talking about strangers and molesters, kidnappers( officer friendly stuff) determining YP issues, or talking about the difference between animals -ex: Male cardinals are red while females are brown. Mallard males are green headed with a white band around neck while females are a mottled brown.

 

You want to say why your own personal experiences while hiking proves that layering is better than 9one bulky garmet is okay.

 

Talking about kissing up your wife...wether on the lips or her butt is a no go.

 

Kissing up to the DE shouldn't be brought up either!

[Eagledad]

I understand this is emotional discussion for you Scoutfish, but you are still missing the point. Well get back to that in a moment.

 

First I must say I disagree with just about everything you said. I don't think man or animals are born counter to their instincts, which are survival and expanding the population. A little study of human physiology shows that physical homosexual attraction makes no sense to our human instincts. So homosexuality must be emotional, and if it is emotional, it can be controlled by choice.

 

This thing about the SM kissing his wife is silly. I understand some here reaching for anything to debate the point, but I was disappointed to see Acco jump in, he usually stays away from such things. Kissing a spouse, family member or even close friends as a form of greeting or departure is a tender shows of affection or respect. It is as acceptable in our coulture as hugs, shaking hands, and giving high fives. Just think how popular someone would be if they restricted such actions of families before and after campouts. And you miss thar point completely.

 

Also, to say an adult should keep there personal life out of scouting takes away the important part of the relationship we develop as role models. The whole idea of SM Confrenses and BORs is to get to know the scout better. Is it not supposed to be a two way street? If you have any hope of developing respect and connecting with your scouts, you have to open up.

 

Ironically, suggesting that everyone in the BSA reframe hugs kisses, shaking hands so gays can participate does point how some folks are so willing to take away the freedoms of many to pacify the few. Isn't that really all political correctness does.

 

But as I said earlier SF, you are missing the point. All you, Acco, Pack really want is the freedom for a SM to give that affectionate kiss goodby to their partner of the same sex without the fear of being kicked out of scouting. Right? You speed so much time turning phrases, disqualifying everyone else who disagrees and searching for loop holes, you miss the main point that what you really want is for a SM to be able to openly and in public kiss their partner of the same sex goodby. And you can't have that because it is considered immoral. But that's all you really want. So why not just disagree and leave it at that?

 

I admit your rant on morality didnt make sense to me. I'm sure the was a point in there somewhere.

 

Barry

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"I understand this is emotional discussion for you Scoutfish, but you are still missing the point."

 

Nah, it's not emotional for me.

 

But is is emotional for you. All of your arguements go back to the premis of "It's not moral because I don't agree with it."

 

 

 

A: "I don't think man or animals are born counter to their instincts,"

I agree! They are not counter to their instincts. But you do understand what instinct means, right?

 

It's not a choice. It's not conscious thought.

 

1instinct noun \ˈin-ˌstiŋ(k)t

Definition of INSTINCT

1: a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity

2a : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason b : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

 

(from Meriam Webster)

 

 

B: "A little study of human physiology shows that physical homosexual attraction makes no sense to our human instincts. So homosexuality must be emotional, and if it is emotional, it can be controlled by choice."

 

But more in depth study shows that physiology also couldn't explain how bees fly.

 

Physiology also freaked out when it met the Duck-billed Platypus because it went against so may ytruths in physiology.

 

You know what a phobia is right? An unreasonable fear, that we cannot control even with rational thought. WE don't understand why we have phobias, and alot of them make no sense at all...but still not a choice.

 

What it comes down to is exactly what you said before:

 

"Morality has become what one feels at the moment."

 

And just like fashion, what's in style this year may be faux pas next year.

 

 

So, people can stick their fingers in their ears and say "nah nah nah nah nah ..I can't hear you" , but that doesn't change the reality that what you consider moral is nothing but a feeling or choice by a group of people who cite references of others who share similar beliefs.

[Eagledad]

You are confusing instinct and behavior. Humans have the ability to reason and choose to not follow instinct. The whole idea of a values youth program is teaching boys how to make moral and ethical choices. Read the BSA vision statement.

 

Gods morality is consistent for all time. That's why it is the perfect reference for humans to behave in peace and equality, if they ever decide to choose so. Even an atheist understands one set of rules for everyone that never changes establishes a peaceful world.

 

Barry

[packsaddle]

"All you, Acco, Pack really want is the freedom for a SM to give that affectionate kiss goodby to their partner of the same sex without the fear of being kicked out of scouting. Right?"

Speaking for myself, the answer would be 'no'. Did you suddenly think you are clairvoyant?

 

"Even an atheist understands one set of rules for everyone that never changes establishes a peaceful world."

Merlyn, are you out there someplace? I suspect (but I could be wrong) that the 'atheist rules' would be somewhat different from yours. Could you be more specific about those 'consistent' moralities associated with your God?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eagledad]

>>Speaking for myself, the answer would be 'no'. Did you suddenly think you are clairvoyant? >So what I ACTUALLY 'meant' was that I hope I live long enough to see the day when gays, transgenders, and others who are the object of prejudice based in fear and ignorance can be ACCEPTED in society, at least to the extent that they have rights equal to the rest of us.

[Scoutfish]

"Gods morality is consistent for all time. That's why it is the perfect reference for humans to behave in peace and equality, if they ever decide to choose so."

 

First things first: I belive in the same God as you. At least i believe so if we are both talking about the God in the King James Bible.

 

But going back to what you said proves my point:

 

 

[packsaddle]

Your wording minimized what I wrote. You minimized it to be the freedom of a gay SM to kiss his partner in public without being kicked out of BSA. So my answer is 'no', that ISN'T "all" that I "really want". The quote from my message that you used in response IS.

 

Also like I wrote, I could be wrong about atheists so I hope Merlyn will join in. However, I did ask a nearby avowed atheist and she said, "the laws of nature apply to everyone, even those persons who fantasize that laws, even different ones, come from supernatural beings." She went on to explain that many of the laws, moreover, are still being discovered or refined through rational investigation (my interpretation). Then I told her "thanks" but I didn't want to think about this stuff anymore. She seemed relieved.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I am here, Lafayette -- er, packsaddle. I agree with the "one set of rules" but not about the "never changes" part; our constitution was written from the beginning to be alterable. As for god's rules never changing Eagledad, is slavery still ok, and do you advocate the death penalty for homosexual acts?

 

And Eagledad, if you want to bring instincts into this, there is a fair amount of evidence that mammals, in general, will show a larger incidence of homosexual behavior as their population density gets too high. When your population is that high, reproduction is not favored, as that can lead to mass starvation. So under that scenario, having more non-reproductive members is an advantage.

[acco40]

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing an obligation to God. Therefore, we do not approve of Scouters who avow to eat pork. We won't go on witch hunts to find out if you eat pork but it you flaunt it in front of our faces, well what do you expect us to do?

 

Now for all of you that disagree, I say stop your relativism! Immoral is immoral - it doesn't change with time. Eating pork is a choice - a bad one at that.

[NJCubScouter]

That's right, Acco, and woe betide (heaven help?) anyone who draws a picture of God (or to Trinitarians, God the Father) or who owns any such depictions (such a print of the Creation of Adam by Michelangelo or paintings by any of 1,000 other Christian artists), since they are sinning against God! (According to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths anyway, not to mention the first 1,000 years or so of Christianity -- no pictures of God (the Father) allowed.)

 

And as for food, not only pork, but how about lobster and shrimp. No good -- says so in the Bible, Exodus I believe, or maybe Leviticus. Never could keep those straight. Cheeseburger, forget it, though the Biblical prohibition on this is a little more obscure and "interpretivist." I believe the Book says thou shalt not cook a young lamb (or something like that) in its mother's milk, but how that got translated into my great-grandmothers thinking they needed to have separate sets of dishes to serve meat and dairy, and never in the same meal, I'm not sure. Well, I am sure, some medieval rabbi said so, but you know what I mean.

 

The point here, and I have made it here a few times over the years, is that no matter how "moral" someone thinks they are, and no matter how observant of the Word of God someone thinks they are, there is always someone else for whom that person is a relativist, blasphemer, etc. There's always someone with a "higher" standard than yours. God says it's ok to have a beer? Only God in English (or is that German), because God in Arabic (Allah) says it isn't. (I always have to laugh a little when far-right fundamentalists of the majority religion in this country refer to "radical Islamists". Leaving aside the issue of violence, it seems to me it's the same league, different team.)

[nolesrule]

" I believe the Book says thou shalt not cook a young lamb (or something like that) in its mother's milk"

 

kid...as in baby goat.

[NJCubScouter]

Yes Nolesrule, that's the one. What can I say, I was a Hebrew School dropout.

 

I think I have the theory correct, though.

 

 

[grmaerika]

So, for all you moral relativists out there, do you think any sort of "morals" have a place in in scouting? Do you have any sort of moral compass? I thought that is what the Boy Scout insignia stood for--a moral compass pointing true north. I'd be curious to know what sort of behavior you deem "good" or "exemplary", since as leaders of boys and young men we are to set an example.You don't seem to care at all about sexual morality...which is in my view the most important. What do you consider sexually moral?Or immoral?Do you condone sex outside of marriage? People who swing both ways? Having more than one sexual partner? Do you think divorce is good? Do you find any of these things to have anything at all with morality? and if all these things are good or ok, why isn't it good to shoot your mother? People get hurt in all of these other circumstances. Why not just go around stabbing people? Is it ok just because the wounds don't show? Someone asked how I form these sweeping opinions.....by being raised at the bottom of the craphole when it comes to morality...by being raised by moral relativists..by being single mother, by getting to know the people hardest hit by immorality, yes, gritty mean street smart man -killer lesbians and straight up hard core cross dressing queers, alcoholics,drug addicts, thieves,etc... I thought by getting involved with scouting I'd come into contact with people who believed possibly in right and wrong and a few morals, or at least people who wanted something better for their kids. I get the sneaking suspicion nobody on here has seen jack squat of what immorality can do...excpept possibly if you work as a prison guard.How do you get off with this morally relative attitude and think you are doing any body any good? You are not! And I'm sure you will have some morally relevant comeback for that.I'm just keeping up with this thread to see how low you all will sink.Personally, I'm glad to be out of the swill hole, and I hope no other poor kid has to go there.