Gay marriage backing

[OldGreyEagle]

Mr. Boyce, I thought we had covered the polls question quite well elsewhere

[Eagledad]

Well Mr. Boyce does kind of touch on something I was wondering about the other day. Packsaddle gave an example of the complicated life of transgender folks. I think at some point Pack said he hoped to live long enough for such people to be seen as normal and even that the BSA would accept them as normal. Not his words so much, but that is what I think he meant.

 

After I read that, I wondered does that mean all people are normal now and there is no such thing as mental illness? What does it take anymore to be considered mentally ill if transgender is considered normal? Hopefully pedophilia is still a sickness, but what about those who desire animals or corpse. They arent hurting anyone really. Transgender is normal?

 

Ive said before that the acceptance of homosexuality in a culture is not a problem in of itself, it is indicative of a culture that has morally lost itself. Morality has become what one feels at the moment. Not just in ones sexual desires, but also in the integrity of our day to day decisions and intentions. We are lost.

 

Personally I feel for these folks in todays world because many people need professional help and wont get it because when it comes down to it, politics wont allow it. Yep, weve come to a place where its becoming politically incorrect to consider even a person who wants to physically change their gender ill. Packsaddle hopes one day that a transgender person might be SM. I hope one day they will get the help they need to feel satisfied to be who they are.

 

Barry

 

[packsaddle]

Eagledad, The transgender persons I know might reply with thanks that the technologies exist now so that they can finally be happy with who they REALLY are. But I would rather let them speak for themselves rather than rely on me to do it for them. Unfortunately, it seems that few people really listen to them.

 

As for the transgender SM, how do you know there isn't one already? As long as people react in the manner that you react, they are unlikely to make themselves vulnerable to those prejudices. So what I ACTUALLY 'meant' was that I hope I live long enough to see the day when gays, transgenders, and others who are the object of prejudice based in fear and ignorance can be ACCEPTED in society, at least to the extent that they have rights equal to the rest of us. This obviously isn't the case now.

 

The concept of 'normal', on the other hand, is a moving target for which each of us seems to have our own unique idea and even that often changes with time. In statistical terms, normal is something that never occurs in nature.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[sherminator505]

Let's take Mr. Boyce's argument at face value. He seems to be against homosexuality because it's a psychological disorder.

 

Where does that lead? Shall we boot a Scouter for having adult ADD? Should an adolescent under treatment for autism be prohibited from Scout activities. Should heterosexual adults be prevented from marrying because one or both are bipolar?

 

I think this is an aspect of the discussion that merits closer examination.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[Eagledad]

>>>>But I would rather let them speak for themselves rather than rely on me to do it for them.

[OldGreyEagle]

Since I am pretty sure heterosexual married scoutmasters don't sit around a campfire and talk about their heterosexuality, or at least they are not supposed to, then why would a transgendered SM be affored an opportunity to talk about their experience?

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>then why would a transgendered SM be affored an opportunity to talk about their experience?

[acco40]

Mr. Boyce, I understand, I think, your position on homosexuality but your "psychological disorder" and "consensus" arguments are flawed. Psychological disorders are nothing more than what a consensus of psychologists say they are. I don't state that to demean psychologists, not that there's anything wrong with being a psychologist, but the determination of what is "normal" is actually pretty heady stuff.

 

A SM telling the scouts that he has the habit of kissing his wife before he leaves for work is different from that same SM telling scouts he kisses his husband.

Why?

 

A Scoutmaster should leave his political views, sexual mores, etc. at "home" so to speak when dealing with the Scouts. As a Scoutmaster, I admit I try to have the boys keep an open mind about stuff. At their age, they either mimic their parents or try to please (or some - the exact opposite). For example, I'll bet if I ask 100 Scouts if drugs are good for you 99 would say no. So then I ask them about aspirin (well maybe Tylenol for them), insulin, vaccines, etc. Well, some drugs are good for you they would say, like insulin. So, do you want some right now I might ask. Finally, I get my point across. Some drugs, when used properly are a great benefit. Others, very little if any benefit and others, harmful, possibly illegal and some fatal. Critical thinking usually isn't their strong suit at this age.

[grmaerika]

the point made that at a young age kids try to mimic or please their parents is exactly why I'm against gay marriage. Period. It's not limited to two consenting adults. It extends into family. Nobody will ever convince me that if little Johnny grows up with two dads kissing and sleeping in the same bed, he will not grow up with this a a set standard for behavior that has been taught to him and modeled for him. Regardless of his natural tendency to be heterosexual. Sexuality is a far far cry from the color of your skin. people choose all the time to be homosexual, they do not choose the color of their skin.it's a myth that everyone who is gay is born that way. Many many people do the flip flop because they have no success with heterosexual relationships , experience abuse etc...Guess what, they don't have any greater success in their gay relationships!Sex and sexuality should have no place in scouting, except that is the BSA, but inevitably family and relationships does come into the picture.That is why I'll never support gay marriage. It all becomes "choice"..i mean why not go have sex with a camel for that matter? In that world absolutely nothing is considered perverse. And if you want to be open to all that, why have any moral guidelines at all? It all becomes perfectly relevant.

[sherminator505]

grmaerika-

 

Given your premise, how do you explain children fron heterosexual households who grow up to become homosexual? And why do you believe that the opposite won't occur just as often?

[Eagledad]

>>A SM telling the scouts that he has the habit of kissing his wife before he leaves for work is different from that same SM telling scouts he kisses his husband.

 

Why?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

That's how they're similar; now state how they're different.

[grmaerika]

Sherminator, i am saying that the opposite could happen just as often. Now, most couples are heterosexual, and maybe one family in.. I don't know the figure,20?, just for examples sake might have a child that turn s out to be gay. Now, reverse that. You have homosexual couples adopting kids.Say three kids for instance, I'm wagering that that there is a good chance their kids will choose a homosexual lifestyle, by choice, since that is how they were raised. It is less likely that they will be heterosexual, because of the modeling of their parents behavior.It all becomes choice, not biology. Which I argue right now is that homosexuality is as much a choice in our day and age, as it is is a biological drive. I choose to kiss women and live with a woman because I can(not really.. Oh I AM a woman BTW), because men have been a total headache to me all my life. That's a choice. Since i've made that choice and have a daughter( good chance that a lesbian actually has a child by a relationship with a man), there's a good chance she will decide she likes girls too, since that's what mommy does.That's why I'll never buy into the whole kids do what comes naturally to them by their own biological nature even tho they are raised by gay parents.It all becomes choice. Do you really think lesbian women like men? My experience is most do NOT. Why would they ever be a good parent for a boy. The same goes vise versa for gay men. Most of them do not like women. And all gays have a distorted view of the opposite sex. How is that a healthy environment for a child? if it's any anything goes world, then let it all go.. you know porn, drugs, theft etcc. Just let it all go. Who cares anymore? Many a lesbian woman has a child or children by a relationship or relationships with men! Really, how gay is she?

[sherminator505]

Pray, tell. What are these life experiences that have led you to these broad-brush conclusions? You appear to be breathlessly racing through one absolute after another.

[Scoutfish]

" Morality has become what one feels at the moment."

 

Yep, you said it!

 

There used to be a time when kings owned slaves in the name of being morally right and within God's favor.

 

There used to be a time when people had multiple wives and also married children( well, that still happens don't it) while still being considered morally correct.

 

People were slaves, fought that slavery because it was wrong, then owned slaves themselves.

 

A certain ruler decreed that people of particular faiths as well as certain hair and eye colors were superior and all others were to be exterminated.

 

At one time, no self respecting person would be caught with a tan, God forbid, lest society thought you were a poor class working person.

 

Yet today, that same golden bronze tan means you are a smart, rich upper class person who does not have to work.

 

But at the same time, it could signify lower intelligence that does not understand the concept of skin cancer.

 

The thing about being "morally superior" is that next week, next year, or the next century, society realizes that the past morally superior society was full of hipocrits, bigots and arrogantly self centered idiots. They realize the former society was compltely wrong and had it backwards.

 

As far as homosexual being a choice, I think not. No more than people chose their allergies, favorite colors or fears.

 

Everybody has a certain turn on. Did you choose it or just become aware of it and yern for it? Why does one man like blondes while another likes redheads?

 

Why does one man like a simple act or procreation, while the other has to be involvd in fetish dress up and role play with multiple people?

 

Did they choose that, or just discover that they are unexplainably drawn to and enjoy it?

 

One woman is attracted to brawny bare chest hairy as a bear men, while another likes slim, nest, pale skinned brainy guys.

 

Do we choose our phobias?

 

Why are some people borm very artistic, while others can't even hum a tune in their own head?

 

Why are some smart, while others have half the common sense of a dead donkey?

 

Why do some folks have to be the center of attention, why others are painfully shy?

 

Choice? Nah, I do not think so.

 

Besides, when did you make the choice you did? What day/year did you consciously decide to be straight over gay?

 

 

And if this choice isn't "natural" to the "men breed with women" option...then explain the "men who choose not to procreate at all" choice made by men in the name of God.

 

Men are created to "sow" the oats, yet they choose not to. Men are created with vocal cords, yet vow to not speak. Seems that those behaviors are no more different than the so called "choosing to be gay" .

 

Yet those choices, which go against the creation of man, are somehow considered emmaculate and we put them ona pedistal. Why?

 

Because "Morality has become what one feels at the moment."

 

 

 

And......

 

"A SM telling the scouts that he has the habit of kissing his wife before he leaves for work " should be told that he needs to stop!

 

There are times and p[laces for everything, but a scout meeting is not the place to talk about his personal habits, wether it be kissing his wife/husband, , hugging, or how he wipes his butt.