2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well OGE, I have to disagree.

1) It's very dangerous and stupid to blow off someone who talks of committing suicide, no matter what the circumstances.

2) The BSA has been far more dishonest than any individual scout, as the BSA has knowingly and willfully defrauded the government by having government charters for decades and getting funding like HUD grants that require nondiscrimination.

[Trevorum]

Merlyn makes two excellent points.. As individuals, there is not much we can do about #2, except express our opinions.

 

However, his point #1 is something we can ALL do something about. Regardless of how we as individuals feel about homosexuality, it is a fact that gay teenagers have a much, much higher rate of suicide than in our general population. As leaders of young people, we need to be aware of this and be aware of our own words. Whether or not gay boys are eligible to become Scouts is not as important as letting these boys know that they are nonetheless valuable human beings with much to contribute to society.

 

Every gay teenager is still someone's son. And families grieve.

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

The BSA has been far more dishonest than any individual scout, as the BSA has knowingly and willfully defrauded the government by having government charters for decades and getting funding like HUD grants that require nondiscrimination.

 

Yeah yeah and let's not forget the government was just as guilty as the BSA, but Merlyn will not tell you that since he only want to present his side of the argument.

[packsaddle]

Trevorum's and Merlyn's comments really hit close to home for me. Several families who are good friends with us have suffered this tragedy and I agree with Merlyn and Trevorum. This kind of thing is something that is always in the back of my mind whenever another student dies from whatever cause, that it might be one of my current or former students, and this is a prospect that I know increases with numbers, I just dread the day. I can barely imagine the horror and despair I would feel if I was one of the parents. I see those parents every day. It is something that NEVER stops hurting.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

If it sounded like I trivialized the suicide attempt, I did not mean it.

 

Ed, lets say you and I go and mug Beavah (Sorry, Beavah, just hypothetical, I wouldn't want anyone to think I mean it)

 

Plenty of people see it, some take videos with their phone cameras. We are caught red handed, with our hands in the Cookie Jar as it were,

 

When the judge asks your plea, what are you going to say, OldGreyEagle did it too?

 

I wonder how Judge Chamberlain Haller would react?

 

[evmori]

Not sure I understand your point, OGE.

[FScouter]

Merlyn, don't respond to that please..

[Eagledad]

>>Merlyn makes two excellent points.

[OldGreyEagle]

I knew I should not have rushed in where Angels fear to tread.

 

If someone can help, I would appreciate it I am at a loss

[qwazse]

I take a break for the weekend and look what I miss out on!

 

gayS couT: in reply to your answer ...

 

Q1. Not enough information. (You know, like in the test which says at the top: "make sure you read all of the instructions before starting!")

 

Q2. Still not enough information. Are you going to stand up for your beleifs and drop out of this organization?

 

There are a few God-denying sodomites whom I will trust to lead my Christian kids in some activity or another, because they demonstrate an otherwise high moral character. Part of that character includes not "sweeping under the rug" a conflict with one group's core issues simply because they feel strongly that those issues should be peripheral.

 

In other words, I know where they stand, they know where they stand, my kids know where they stand. They do good work. They are truly gifted (by their Creator, although I have yet to convince them of that, or of the whole straight thing!).

 

So, I suggest if you are convinced that *you* are such a moral example, you start (or join) a youth movement open to athiestic homosexuality.

 

We Eagles may be a little bitter that you swept things under the rug while other boys had to seriously reckon with their faith in front of a bunch of adults probably for the first time in their lives, but we'll let that slide if you make a clean start of it.

[evmori]

OGE,

 

In your example we were both caught. Merlyn fails to state the government is just as guilty as the BSA because they entered into the charter agreement as well.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, since the topic was lying to the BSA and not lying to the government, the government's degree of dishonesty isn't relevant.

 

OGE, I hope it wasn't a brush-off like it first sounded. It wouldn't surprise me if some suicidal people distanced themselves by talking about "a friend" who is suicidal, even with a layer of anonymity already in place.

[evmori]

Well, Merlyn, your comment about the BSA's dishonesty is what brought it up. I was just making the point you never give both sides, only the one that favors your opinion.

[moosetracker]

Also boyscouts have the code of "trustworthy".. Politicians don't.. Most people expect that those in government positions to be trustworthy..

 

So the story should go, if a boy scout and a theif went out on a crime spree and both got caught. Should the boys scout's defense be "Well the theif was doing it too"..

 

Agree with Merlyn.. If someone announces they are suicidal, you do not condemn them for lieing.. Instead you try to help them find value in themselves and suggest places they should contact for more help.. Remember besides Reverent the law has other things in it also ( Courtious, Kind, Helpful ) are all things that should be used while dealing with a person who is despondent..

[CalicoPenn]

In the meantime, some may want to check their answers to see if they're following the Scout Law as well - seems that some that are harping on Trustworthy and Reverent are missing something in the Helpful, Friendly, Courteous and Kind departments.

 

The emphasis on "honesty" in "trustworthy" bothers me a bit too. They aren't neccessarily synonymous yet it seems many believe that they are one and the same.

 

There was a political candidate in this last election that got herself into a bit of a pickle when she admitted that had her family been hiding Anne Frank, and had she been asked by the "authorities" if Anne Frank were in her house, she would have said "yes" in the name of honesty. I think most people understand that there are times when being 100% honest is not the right thing to do. Shouldn't part of trustworthy be expressing an understanding that if someone wants to do harm to somebody, and we know where that person is, that we can be trusted enough not to say anything that will lead someone to harm?

 

Being trustworthy is more about doing the right thing than being honest. Most of the time, being honest is doing the right thing, but there may be a time when not being 100% honest is the most trustworthy thing.

 

As to the specific questions - had the sexuality and athiesm not been broached, my answer would have been Yes and Yes. Knowing the sexuality and athiesm, my answer is still Yes and Yes. I'm not bigoted enough to believe that just being gay and/or an athiest makes someone less good, moral or well-mannered or less of a role model. Frankly, the "trustworthy" argument seems to be a reach - a way to express prejudiced viewpoints while trying to avoid the label that comes with expressing prejudiced viewpoints.