2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[Scoutfish]

Here's something to consider, and consider with a great deal of thought, compassion and understanding on the part of youth:

 

believing in God and having faith.

 

Now, before you object, take a moment to put your own thoughts, opinions and PERSONAL BELIEFS aside long enought to make a proper judgement on what other people have a right to have - namely, their own PERSONAL beliefs.

 

 

You ever have to set your kid straight about lying? Sure you have. You ever "just know" that somebody is lying , even though you have no proof.

 

And what about the folks who have seen UFO's, elvis or even bigfoot. Total crackpots right?

 

Why? And just how do we know that the7y havent seen bigfoot, Elvis or green men in silver catsuits?

 

Because we havent seen them ourselves.

 

Now, getting to the point of what I am talking about.

 

Starting at a very early age, kids learn from us that , basically, if you do not have proof, then it's not real. IE: No monster in the closet, no tidybowl man, no aliens, no make believe friends. No proof - not real. WE as parents can't see, feel , or hear them..so they are not real.

 

But then we tell them about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, The Sandman , and who knows who else...just to one day tell them they are old enough to longer believe in that nonsense.

 

The very same nonsense WQE TAUGHT and WE PUSHED onto them. We did everything we could to make them believe it, then patronizingly tell them they are foolish for doing it when they are older.

We tell them that people who believe in UFO's and bigfoot are crackpots because....well if for no other reason, we didn't ever see it ourselves.

 

 

Now the kicker!

 

We expect them to have total reverence, respect, and the upmost love for somebody they can not see, do not actually have proof of, and as far as they truely know...is only talked about by people and written in books without any photographic or scientific proof of.

 

So why should they believe in God and believe he exists?

 

Because we said so.

 

Just like we said so about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, The sandman, and whoever else you might have said in fun or tradition.

 

So here's the cunundrum for some youth:

 

This guy is real, even though there is no proof...you just have to have faith. You had better believe lest you get nasty looks and get shuned by many. Nobody has actually seen him or heard him speak. And the only proof they have is "faith".

 

That other guy ( Santa Claus) isn't real, and if you really think so, you will get nasty looks, shunned and possibly a free white jacket that keeps your arms all snug at your sides. Doesn't matter that there are pictures of him and that people still PUSH him on their kids every year.

 

At one point in your life, you are expected to have two different outcomes based on the exact same set of factors.

 

So why do we get bent all out of shape over a scout (who is under age 18 , by the way, and not a legal adult) who isn't sure, or thinks differently than us?

 

And by bent out of shape, I mean we tend to get nasty, look down our noses and generally show disgust at a non adult because they are not so sure about what to think or believe.

 

We tell them to belive something and come up with every plausible reason and make up "facts" to support Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, then we tell them to stop beliveing because it is childish and well..foolish.

 

Then we expect them to believe something else under the exact set of parametres, and get angry if they are reserves or skeptical?

 

Again, this is not my belief system. I believe in God. Just saying though, instead of acting unscoutlike when somebody professes to be athiest or agnostic...maybe we should stop and consider as to what circumstances brought them to the conclusuions they have.

 

Just saying that it's ahrd to tell your son that he is just too smart to believe in Santa - when he had no knowledge of him until you put it there ( and backed up with movies, pictures , maybe even a mall visit and picture) , and then blast him for not sharing or believing your faith when he doesn't have the "poof" than he had of Santa.

 

So maybe we ought to just take it a bit easy on a kid who says he's athiest or not sure what to belive. Afterall, he's still just a kid.

 

The same kids who like this girl today and that girl tommorrow.

 

The same kid that's gonna be an astronaught on Monday, a Cowboy on Tuesday, a racecar driver on Wednesday, a soldier on Thursday, etc....

 

[evmori]

My answer to both questions is no and I, too, feel this is a troll.

[Eagledad]

Kudu, I am a ardent believer of "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe". I just don't believe that that statement fixes everything. A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god. If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else.

 

I thought my gutless point was a little off the mark and unfair because I feel we are friends and you would see the smile behind it. But nothing you wrote in your following post changed anything I wrote. That surprised me. I was ready to admit my errors and stand humbled. Its kind of funny, I was thinking that you were psychological projectioning when you talked about the atheist Scout and finding a fix to get the Eagle. And now I wonder about the IQ comment. I guess I just don't position scouts like that.

 

You accuse me of some kind of pressure toward scouts in that they would not feel comfortable speaking freely, and yet I've said nothing that would feed that thinking. You would find that my scouts didn't know my religion or my belief in God. After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you. I have too much respect for their abilities to figure it out, no matter what their IQ.

 

And maybe that is why I've never had to find them a fix. What ever fix the scout needs to satisfy himself, he would seek and find himself, even if the fix was "I am an atheist". I want nothing to do with what a Scout believes other than to support him. Its too personal and really none of my business other than what the BSA requires of me, which really isn't that much. I on the other hand admire any man who can make the tough choice, even if that choice means giving up the Eagle. And THAT is what I mean a decision made for life. If the scout gives up the Eagle because of the tough decision, there is no going back. Unless he is before 18 of course.

 

When I think back on the many many discussions Ive read on this forum, it seems only the scouters that have had discussions with atheist scouts are the adults who seem charged up by the BSA restriction of atheist. There is just something that bothers me about that. I know there are stories of over zealous adults push their form of religion on the scouts, but I wonder who is more zealous, those against the BSA or those for. I mean I have had 1000s of discussions with these young man and I have to wonder why I've never had one with a out and out devout atheist. I've had many discussions with boys completely confused and many who just didn't know. I will never forget the counseling the witch. I am sure their are boys who are truly atheist, but to read it from you and a few others here, there are a lot of atheist scouts and just I don't believe that. Its too hard just trying to figure themselves out to make that kind of conclusion without the help of an adult somewhere.

 

I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that. While I've never met an atheist scout, I know several adult Eagles who are now atheist. I only have pity for the ones who knew they were atheist when they got the Eagle.

 

Barry

[SSScout]

""It is a sad Reflection, that many Men hardly have any Religion at all; and most Men have none of their own: For that which is the Religion of their Education, and not of their Judgment, is the Religion of Another, and not Theirs.""

==William Penn==

 

The personal developement of a faith often is NOT a logical progression, and can not be depended on to happen just when we want it to. I cannot think of any religiously active person that I admire/revere/respect who can truthfully say that they came to their faith by LOGIC. I did not come to my faith purely on the basis of my parents teachings (not that they had many), or that of any given religious leader (in person or on tv or elsewhere).

It came about for me in a progression of inquery. And revelation. And surprise. And "aha" moments.

I have three cats at home. I was sitting on our couch, minding my own business, when Nick came and sat on the table beside me,about 1 foot away from me. I was caught by the realization that every hair on his head was pointed in exactly the correct direction to support and assist every other hair. And he had exactly three longer, special hairs, whiskers, vertically placed above each eye. And there were other "special" hairs behind his cheeks, and each was pointed in the exact direction it needed to be. Not across each other, not forward or down (those directions were taken up by other special hairs). How, why did these hairs get this way, on this cat, at this time? So many hairs, correctly, accurately, angled so as to not interfere with any other hair, grown so long and no longer, and colored just so, in those places and no others...

Did Nick keep them all neatly combed and brushed? Sure, but his efforts only encouraged what was already happening. Did they get that way by pure chance, over many millions of years of evolution? Possibly, but wow!

 

It is totally appropriate for our children to question the faith of their parents (and Scout leaders) and if we cannot show the benefit/reason/necessity/appropriateness of it to their satisfaction, well, maybe we need to find out why we believe what we do, rather than complain that THEY don't agree with us.

Then too, as has been alluded to, The hypocracy of faith of others is often an atheist's best argument for the way they believe.

I tend to agree with clemlaws first response. We do ask the Scout to promise to be "reverent" and faithful in his "duty to God" . Fortunately, we do not (should not?)require him to define how he perceives God, or to actively describe how he DOES his DtG.

Perhaps one's duty to the Godhead/almighty/creator/thru His son etc. is to NOT believe in him/her/it, however paradoxical that may seem. I believe it was Gandhi who observed that the best Christians he knew were Muslim.

"By their fruits shall ye know them". If I were to define the faithful by their actions, I would have a hard time so categorizing many supposedly Christ followers by their adherence to the Rabbi's teachings.

But then, I have to agree with the folks who call attention to the OP's speaking the words, espousing the Promise and Law, and then openly flouting them? What does that indicate? The faith needs to be there to be a True Scout.

As to his sexual proclivities, at no time should that ever be a considerartion UNLESS he brings it up. Ain't no rule (that I specifically know of) ,but I think that no Scout, of any age, should be sexually active or suggestive or provocative as a Scout. Hetero or otherwise. In my Scout career, except in "hypothetical" cases, it hasn't come up. Yet.

[Kudu]

Eagledad writes:

 

A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god.

 

You have it backward: All the young atheists I have met reject supernaturalism. A definition of God as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe, is the opposite of supernaturalism. So to understand that not all religion requires short-cutting natural law does indeed solve the "Atheist Scout Problem."

 

Eagledad writes:

 

If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else.

 

I merely require that they understand the concept, as well as the definitions of awe and wonder. None of them ever become "a pantheist."

 

Maybe no atheist Scout has ever debated you because you are so hung up on "belief" (as opposed to "faith"). Matthew 15:31-46 is about action (B-P's "Practical Christianity") not belief.

 

Eagledad writes:

 

After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you.

 

Obviously that is not true, because no Scout has ever told you he is an atheist.

 

Eagledad writes:

 

I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that.

 

Since you have never met an atheist Scout, it follows that you would not know from personal experience that these are not the kind of kids that can be "swayed" to anyone else's "way of thinking."

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[SeattlePioneer]

A lot of people who profess a belief in environmentalist theories are nature worshipers in my opinion. Does that meet the Scouting test of a "duty to God"?

 

 

 

Do those who profess themselves to be atheists admitting to a form of religion?

[Oak Tree]

I don't see that there's much reason to believe this is a troll - and especially I don't see why we should close the thread just because some people think so. You're free to let the thread die.

 

But the posters' comments sound remarkably similar to what I would expect the real answers to be in this situation. Despite what some of Scouting's more ardent proponents suggest, it is not the case that all of the youth are engaging in deep value building and strong character enhancement. I'd say it's relatively common for Scouts to shallowly repeat the words - whether they generally agree with them or not.

 

Most of us do not find the values of theism and heterosexuality to be a core part of our Scouting experience. They come up so rarely, in fact, that people who hold opposite values don't mind being a part of the organization. I can easily imagine people who ignore some apparently very minor aspects to the Scouting program in order to be a part of the larger set of friends and activities.

 

I think I would answer yes, and yes.

[evmori]

Most of us do not find the values of theism and heterosexuality to be a core part of our Scouting experience.

 

It really makes no difference how many feel this way. The BSA feels these are core values and until the BSA changes, these core values will stay in place.

[OldGreyEagle]

As a Troll, Tuoc is not very good. Of the 69 poss in this thread he owns 7, and none since Friday the 28th.

 

If he were to be a Troll, he should be on every couple hours or so exhorting us to explain ourselves and as far as we know he has moved on or is thinking about what he has read.

 

How about we don't post anything in this thread until he adds another post, do you have that self control? Just a suggestion

 

(I can dream can't I?)

[packsaddle]

Scoutfish,

You seem to be particularly sensitive about the topics of bigfoot and UFO's. Would you like to confess something here?

C'mon, you've seen them...haven't you?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OGE, a really good troll just posts once and sits back and watches.

 

Oh, I'd better slap this down while I'm here...

vol_scouter writes:

It is not discrimination to be denied membership because you do not meet the requirements.

 

Of COURSE it's discrimination vol_scouter. In the BSA's case it's legal discrimination, but it's still discrimination.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[Eagle732]

What one person calls discrimination another will call membership requirements.

Depends on your view; whether you're outside looking in or inside looking out.

[drmbear]

It may be a stretch for some, but I kinda see asking someone whether they believe in God can be considered very much like asking someone if they believe in happiness. Although we have a general definition of what it means to be happy, each person can have very different ideas about what makes him or her happy. Just because the things that make me happy tick you off doesn't mean I don't believe in happiness. Even an athiest can have an understanding of God in a way that has meaning and value to them in how they relate to other people and their community. To me, it is far more important for there to be respect in the beliefs of others - those are the values our country was founded on (good citizenship), and as I continue to learn more about the founding of Scouting and my experiences growing up in Scouting, including B-P's tradition of a "Scout's Own," it seems to me respect in the beliefs of all in this "World Brotherhood of Scouting" is far more important than defending your personal beliefs. Actually, as soon as anyone starts knocking someone else's beliefs, I'd say they are violating the underlying foundation of the Scout Oath and Law.

[John-in-KC]

83Eagle,

 

There is nothing I know of that prohibits someone who believes in polytheism from being a member of Scouting.

 

The last time I checked, Hindu was at its source, polytheistic, and we have Hindi religous emblems.

 

The last time I checked, Shinto is, for our purposes, polytheistic.

 

In my role as a Scouter, I'm not going to fight to die on the hill over the matter of monotheism v polytheism.

[moosetracker]

Well drmbear.. I can agree with most of what you say.. the only tweek I would do is an atheist may have an understanding of what God means to others, but may not find value or meaning for themselves.. After all if you are going to reject a belief, you first need to understand what it is that you are rejecting.. Otherwise you are not an athiest, just someone with no opinion on the subject..

 

But although I know reverent is to believe in some higher being (I could be wrong but it could even be someTHING higher then you, rather then of a higher being) (But, I know it does not need to be a god per-se).. And I have no problem with this.. I put more stock in being respectful of the beliefs of others around you.. And that includes the belief of the athiest.. Because like it or not, it is a belief...(This message has been edited by moosetracker)