2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[Mr. Boyce]

It's always part-amusing and part-frightening to see the psychic energy Mr. Merlyn has in these issues.

 

If atheist, why stay in BSA? (why go to Sunday School?, etc.)

 

I agree with people who say that the teen years are years of individual exploration of ideas and the general world around them. I know I was a BSA member and questioned God's existence: for many, it's a normal phase, sometimes prolonged through the college years. It's been interesting to me to see that polls of significant scientists show they have more religious belief than the general public.

 

[evmori]

So, Merlyn, when you state you pointed out how idiotic the BSA policies are, you are only voicing your opinion which is based on your opinion, correct?(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, I see you've finally figured out that my opinion is my opinion.

[OldGreyEagle]

I think it was Immanuel Kant in his treatise "Critique of Pure Reason" that said man could only ever have a "new thought" in the science of Mathmatics, that everything else was only going to be the sum total of what a person has experienced in the physical world or what he had been exposed to in the abstract world, either through teaching or reading. ANd just because you experience it, doesn mean it's real (See UFO's in Jerusalem) or maybe it is

 

Its called the theory of gravity because we are not sure exactly why it works, but we can prove that there is gravity. There is the Theory of Evolution which many accept but there is no real proof as yet that connects all the dots,

 

There is also the theory of Globl warming, but here on the East COast, it hasnt been mentioned yet this winter

 

Anyway where I was going was of course we can only express our own opinions, thats like saying I can only be myself. I can pretend I am some one else, dress like them and talk like them and even get those funky only in the movie latex masks, but in the end, I still think like myself

[Tuoc Syag]

Beavah, I think you have an excellent point. In fact, I already have a plan to get engaged to a heterosexual woman on my 25th birthday. You know, once the whole young, rebellious stage of my life is officially over. I picked out a church for our wedding, too, since I'll believe in God some time around then.

 

"If atheist, why stay in BSA? (why go to Sunday School?, etc.)"

 

I wouldn't go to Sunday School because that's a program designed specifically around practicing religion. Scouting is largely based on practicing religions, but not homogeneously. In some troops, like my own, there is very little pressure of religion. Most adults mildly encourage participation in religious events, but sometimes vespers was optional, we usually only said grace at summer camp, and there were no other mandatory discussions about religion. We were a very "live and let live" troop and it worked for us. If it had been as religiously guided as a Sunday School, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it. That was probably the most conflicting part of the whole situation: I had a troop that would have accepted me (at least for being an atheist), but the national (which had a lot less direct influence on my experience) had a policy by which I wasn't accepted.

 

To clarify again, I still maintain my scouting contacts, but I no longer consider myself an active leader.

 

And also, on a totally curious and non-related, non-derogatory note, @Beavah, to you speak in the same manner you write?

[Tuoc Syag]

And to reiterate the real topic I was debating: I know the BSA does not accept me as it is, and I accept that, and I didn't mean to argue whether or not that was a fair policy. That is the horse that has been beaten to death.

 

But in its own words, "no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God," and "an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys." My question relied entirely on the basis of the above statements, and whether that was a valid assertion, with the addition of the homosexuality factor to the atheist factor.

[moosetracker]

 

I already have a plan to get engaged to a heterosexual woman on my 25th birthday.

 

 

Reminds me of an odd love story in a distant relation. The family member is openly homosexual. He marries a woman who is openly a lesbian. Why? She wanted to be a citizen of this country.. Now before all the straight and narrows get their dander up.. Read the rest of the story..

 

From then on, the family didn't really know if they saw others or not, but they were always together with family at every holiday, and were truely, truely the best of friends..

 

My family member is stricken with aids, and slowly became sicker and sicker.. Who is there by his side day and night taking care of him until the bitter end? His wife.. They even stated that they wish things were different that they could have a normal relationship, because they did love each other to both wish that it was something they could change.

 

There was no sex in this marraige.. But for me this was a true marraige in every other sense of the word.. At the same time it is the reason that although I don't quite understand it, because I am not programed that way myself.. I do believe that those people with homosexual tendencies, really truely can not be changed by just an attitude adjustment.. Or by meeting a nice person of the opposite gender..

 

Strange how so close of a normal hetersexual relationship between two homosexuals can make you realise that if you are geared that way, it really truely is unchangable..

[evmori]

And yet, Merlyn, that opinion of yours is based on nothing!

 

And the OP is definitely a troll.

[Scoutfish]

I'm directing this at EVERYBODY:

 

And the OP is definitely a troll.

So what makes somebody a troll?

 

No, I am not asking what a troll is...I already know that.

 

But what makes you decide somebody is a troll?

 

 

From the comments in this forum, a troll seems to be somebody who asks something that irritates the general membership AND that "something" is a subject that has been covered before.

 

WEll, that logic is total crap!

 

And I'll tell you why. First, I do not say that with a hatefull or angry tone, just saying it is what it is.

 

I have been a member of this forum for a short time. Extremely short compared to some of you.

I have not even seen but a speck of what has been talked about or covered in this forum.

 

Quite often, I see a post where somebody asks or talks about something, and a long timer will say act all huffy and over dramatically put out because the exact same subject has been covered before. Maybe you talked about ir 4 years ago.

 

So?

 

I wasn't here 4 years ago. I have no idea who asked what, who talked about what, or who got their man panties all bunched up over it.

 

All I know is that I might ask a similar or even the exact same question next week because - as it concerns me or my life - it is a brand new, never been encountered , new to me subject.

 

Now, I know some of you think it's my job to scan every single past post anfd comment to screen it and make sure it's not been covered before.

 

But what if...in my opinion...I have a different twist or different set of circumstances concerning my question?

 

How about when a long time scouter says I need to get trained..and yet if THEY loked back at all my previous posts..they would see I AM trained.

 

But I suppose that would mean that everybody would have to have the knowledge that not every single training on a particular subject is handled the same way. Kinda like some troops are adult led while other are boy led.

 

Kinda like pack A only pack camps while pack B council camps.

 

 

Basically, what I am saying is that alot of you think Tuoc Syag

 

is a troll because you have talked about this before. Really? Does he know that? Has he been hanging out for the last ten years or so? The last 5?

 

Or is it possible that he might be a new member who didn't read the joining requirement for scouter.com that says: "You must read all posts and make sure your forum subject has NEVER EVER been discussed before, in order to post it."

 

Again, not saying this with an angry, hatefull or mean tone. Just saying that not everybody sees, thinks or posts with same mentality as everybody else.

 

I myself have no idea what people talked about before I joined, who stood on which sie of iyt, or who got angry, sad, laughed or cried over it.

 

And honestly, if anybody is soooo sick and tired of something, use that mouse thingy and change the page or website.

 

 

As I see it, Tuoc Syag asked an honest question. He may or may not like the replies, but that doesn't make it any less of a question just because we don't like the subject or heard it before.

 

Just like scouting: just about the time you trhink a particular event is just old news and are tired of it...a brand new set of Tiger Cubs or Boys Scouts come along who have NEVER seen it before. To them, it's brand spanking new.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Tuoc Syag,

Having thought about your questions for a week now, I think I might have a different set of answers for you.

 

 

Question 1: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts?

 

In addition to my scouting pursuits, I am openly gay and have been an atheist since the age of 13.

 

Question 2: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts?

 

 

 

Yeah, I think you are doing okay at it.

 

Perfect? Nah, but I dare anybody else to claim so.

 

See, what I am thinking of reminds me of two sets of circumstances.

 

In both cases, people were considerd pretty much good hearted and good role models - except for one detail.

 

Early Americal colonials were representatives of England. We had the skills to go to a raw land and settle trhere . We didn't have fancy servant prepared meals and sleep in our existing homes. Everything was started from scratch. We did stuff that royalty couldn't do to save their lives, yet we were considered lower class by the blue bloods and aristocracy. We were practically just common serfs.

 

But we didn't like it and we stood up and fought to be our own men. Technically, we were traitors and breaking the law. But we made ourselves into heros, right? And I stand behind what we did.

 

Just because somebody madea a rule doesn't make it right.

 

Another scenario I can think of is Rosa Parks. The only reason anything and everything about what happened is because of one single factor: skin color. She was considered a lower class citizen , not because she stole, because she lied or because she killed, but she along with an entire race were considered untrustworthy and not role models because of theuir skin. She decided she had enough.

 

Now the difference is that your situation only involves a club. This club is not vital to living, having basic freedoms or even having a right to loin. It's just the same as an all womens fitness club. It does discriminate against men, but you know what? It's PRIVATE!

 

That and the fact I can join many, many clubs that allow men.

 

So, back to your question. ARe you a good role model ?

 

WEll, it all depends on the person looking at you. I think you are doing okay and that you overcame an obstacle in the path you were taking.

 

WEther you are a patriot or a criminal is in the eye of the beholder.

 

But I also see it like this: Cops are paid to enforce the law. There are some laws that cops think are stupid, Some that need to be changed. Some that need to be tougher, some that need to be more lenient. AAnd there are some that cops think should be scrapped.

 

But that doesn'tmean cops don't like their job or feel that being a cop is a bad thing. They still take pride in their job abd still do what they can to protect the public.

 

I think this is the case with alot of adult leaders. They may not agree with ALL of scouting's rules, but still buy into and follow the program in general.

 

So aagin, as a rale model, you are doing okay. It's like you acted in civil disobedience . Wether to prove something or personal gain make a slight difference.

 

But , like the cop, I would still have to follow BSA's laws concerning your membership.

[packsaddle]

Scoutfish,

Fella, I have to tell you....your point about trolls has been made before about two years ago in a much older thread...

Sorry, couldn't resist. BIG IMPISH GRIN (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[WAKWIB]

Concerning trolls; there was possibly a time around 10 years ago or so that Merlyn was regarded as a troll on this forum. Now he is a somewhat esteemed and expected participant in these discussions. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he is given moderator powers.

[Trevorum]

You're now part of the Establishment, Merlyn. Better pack it in before you become a member of the Ruling Elite ...

[OldGreyEagle]

you gotta admit, 10 pages latter, the topic some people didnt want discussed keeps going on, just like the Energizer bunny

 

And remarkably civil, realizing all things are relative

[Beavah]

My relatives are rarely civil.