2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[packsaddle]

OGE, not a hijack (well maybe almost, just for some levity at this point) I almost forgot about your reference to Judge Chamberlain Haller. It reminded me that there is NO WAY a person can fake a Southern accent, even if they're a really good actor. You either grow up with it or not. Fred tried his best and failed. At least Vinnie was authentic (I almost felt I had married into his family).

At Christmas, sometimes a group of inlaws will ask me to "say something". And then, "say something else." I take it all in good humor. But I'm not so certain about the part how I remind them of Jed Clampett.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

Search for posts from tjhammer, another Gay Scout, he was the guy of which I speak

 

Ed, you confuse the heck out of me. First you say you don't understand my point

 

Then you give an answer that indicates you indeed understand my point

 

I am confused

 

[sherminator505]

Whoops. Missed the athiest part (Wow, that touched off a firestorm...). My bad. Carry on.

[Mr. Boyce]

For my two cents of free cyberspace,

 

the OP is not a good role model. . . where's reverence? and where's the morally straight/clean aspect?

 

 

OH DON'T FRET! I UNDERSTAND GAYS HAVE FEELINGS. I'm not saying the OP should be treated badly at all. It DOES strike me as odd that an atheist would feel interested in becoming a scout (or an altar acolyte, for that matter), or odd that a gay would also do so.

 

BE careful about bashing those who disagree with the PC-mantra here; disagreeing with PC doesn't make one an awful person.

[jrush]

Mr Boyce, let's not get carried away. Remember, there are religeons that the Boy Scouts grant religous awards for that neither view homosexuality as immoral or unclean, nor do they recognize a singular God.

 

That being said, the bottom line is the BSA bars homosexuals and atheists as a matter of national policy. So, while the OP may be a great role model, he has no business being an adult leader. PC has nothing to do with it.

 

 

[evmori]

I gave it some more thought OGE.

[SeattlePioneer]

jrush,

 

 

I think the application and BSA policy pretty explicitly rules out atheism for boys and leaders.

 

Personally, I wouldn't interrogate adults or youth closely on their religious beliefs. All thy really need to do is affirm a belief in a god of some kind or variety.

 

In an earlier post I suggested that many people these days seem to have adopted nature worship as a religion as a practical matter. Nature worship doesn't seem to be one of the religions explicitly recognized by BSA, but perhaps it ought to be.

 

On only one occasion have I been questioned about my religious beliefs. I was questioned by the District Chair:

 

Q. Do you believe in God?

 

A. Yes.

 

 

Q. Are you a member of a church?

 

A. No.

 

Q. Would you be interested in visiting my church?

 

 

A. No.

 

 

I'm pretty adaptable as far as religion goes. A church that produces people who are worthy of respect in the way they live their lives has earned my respect.

[Eamonn]

I haven't taken the time to visit the BSA web site.

But maybe someone can help me out?

I seem to think that the BSA used to, and maybe still does make mention that the ban on gays is for "Avowed" Homosexuals.

I have a bit of a problem with the avowed bit.

Please believe me when I say that I'm not looking for loop holes.

Tuoc Syag posts:"I am openly gay and have been an atheist since the age of 13."

If he said when he knew that he was "openly gay"? Then I missed that bit.

I'm not sure when or at what age you find out what your sexual persuasion is? Then I'm not sure what you have to do in order to make it avowed?

Do you have to have sex?

Is someone who has never had sex really gay or straight?

I have an aunt who is a devote Catholic, she never married and to the best of my knowledge has never been with a man or a woman. I don't know if there is or there isn't any reason for this.

As a teenage Scout, I was what I now think as naturally curious and did things that might be viewed as "Gay".

While I have been happily married for going on 30 years, I do at times enjoy the company of an all male group.

I have known and worked with men who are straight, but are for whatever reason seen as being a little effeminate.

Christmas 2009 a Scouter that I looked up to all of my life passed away. He'd served as the District Commissioner and a Assistant County Commissioner in the area of London I come from. This was before the UK allowed gay leaders. It turns out that this fellow was gay. Looking back, I suppose there were signs, but no one seemed to notice - I guess by BSA standards he wasn't "Avowed"?

While I'm sure that there are people who are true atheists. I don't wish them any ill will.

I however am not sure that a Lad of 13 has explored enough to know at that age if he is indeed a true atheist.

Many of the young people who I have talked with who say that they are an atheist are more about rebelling against organized religion than in fact being hard core atheists.

Of course some have given the matter a lot of thought and really are.

Tuoc Syag,

I have to admit that I really wouldn't be that happy to have you serve as an Assistant Scoutmaster. I really am not sure if you are able to do the job.

I do think that if you were a youth member in a Crew or a Ship that working with the right leader you might be able to explore a little more.

It might be that you are indeed an avowed gay atheist.

In which case this really isn't the organization for you and if you really are a person of character, you will see this and leave.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"I have a bit of a problem with the avowed bit."

I think many of us have that problem, perhaps in different directions. It does seem to be a contradiction. On the surface it could be interpreted as meaning that BSA is OK with gay leaders as long as they aren't 'open' about their sexuality. In this sense, it might just as well apply to heterosexual leaders since sexuality isn't supposed to be a component of the program at all.

However, this approach has a problem if the restriction is derived from the 'clean' part of the scout law, as I seem to remember it. Clean is clean and if homosexuality is 'unclean' in the eyes of BSA membership policy, then it ought to apply, 'avowed' or not.

As I've noted in the past, the real problem is the pragmatic truth that sexuality is something that cannot be known for sure by others if not expressed openly somehow by the individual. In this sense BSA paints itself into a corner with a policy that doesn't really address the basis for that same policy. The policy remains hopelessly flawed by allowing gay leaders (and they most certainly do exist) and all the more hopeless by informing them up front that they will be able to remain leaders as long as they are not avowed. In a single voice BSA not only states, in effect, that gays can lead but BSA also establishes the conditions of their acceptance by telling them how: "don't avow".

 

And as I've noted in the past. Because there is no 'gay' test for membership, this is a logical, unavoidable outcome. If there was ever a place for the term 'stupid' to be applied, this policy is a strong candidate.

[OldGreyEagle]

Stupid is as stupid does

 

Forrest Gump... or Mrs Gump, I get confused

[jrush]

Pack, it's not that the BSA is "painting itself into a corner". The BSA is just saying that they aren't going to hook anyone up to a polygraph when they turn in their regisration. In effect the BSA has essentially copied the military's DADT policy. No witchhunts, but keep it to yourself.

 

It's not a matter of whether or not the OP is a good role model...he certainly could be regardless of his sexual orientation and atheism...it's that the BSA, as a private organization, can and does have a set of rules about who can be a leader and who can receive the rank of Eagle.(This message has been edited by jrush)(This message has been edited by jrush)

[Mr. Boyce]

I have to say it is curious to me, and I wonder the financial cost, of so many scholars, etc., working up rewritings of the Bible, interpretations that turn away the obvious point and develop huge, intricate schemas which are said to indicate that homosexuality is not a moral evil.

 

How many of your tax dollars have paid for this intellectual finagling?

 

I am sorry, saddened and stupefied when I learn of denominations that somehow believe the Bible okays homosexuality. It's incomprehensible to me, and I've read some of those twisted efforts at justifying the practice.

 

NO I don't "hate" homosexuals. I'm tired of hearing this rant whenever a person disagrees with a gay spokesman/propagandist.

 

 

[Mr. Boyce]

The BSA organization would immediately suffer if avowed gays were accepted, because parents would, reasonably enough, fear predators, in the same way that parents are concerned about their sons becoming altar boys!

 

And while it is true that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, there is a far greater percentage of pedophilia among homosexuals than there is within a comparable cohort of heterosexuals.

 

So it's a somewhat reasonable fear.

[CalicoPenn]

"because parents would, reasonably enough, fear predators"

 

No - they would irrationally fear predators because people like you keep making false accusations against homosexuality.

 

"there is a far greater percentage of pedophilia among homosexuals than there is within a comparable cohort of heterosexuals."

 

Approximately 95% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Approximately 5% of pedophiles are homosexual. Which pretty much matches the approximate size of each group in the general population and pretty much shows the above argument to be utter nonsense.

 

 

 

[vol_scouter]

 

The percentage of homosexuals in the population according to the CDC is 1.9%. I have presented references to studies that incite that the percentage of sex with pubertal children by adults is ~2-5% due to homosexuals which makes Mr. Boyce's statements hard to confirm or deny. Pedophiles have sex with prepubertal children and thus do not really apply to Boy Scouts very much since most are pubertal or post pubertal. Pedophiles are also primarily heterosexual but are so ill tat such labels are somewhat meaningless.