2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[John-in-KC]

OK, moose:

 

Time to drop the bombshell:

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

 

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

(emphasis added)

 

● Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cls. 2-4.

The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.

 

Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[skeptic]

For me, I hold to the more simplistic view that atheism, as defined, is not really possible; "denial of something as not real, indicates acceptance of its possibility". But, that is just me.

 

So then, we have instead agnosticism, which is what I see in scouts that seem to be non believers, but still discuss its possibilities in some manner. And, often, older scouts tend to suddenly change their "belief structure" as they get older and are introduced to more options. We have a just turned 18 year old that, when he came in just short of 11, was pretty much a clone of his parents, especially his mom. When we were going over his Eagle app a couple weeks ago, he asked who should be his religious reference. He admitted then, that he is really questioning things, especially organized religion; but he still believes in God. So, he is searching for an answer that fits him today; and ten years from now, he will likely have a different point of view.

 

Agnosticism is not a reason to deny a scout, as long as he is not in absolute denial. JMHO

[moosetracker]

Maybe, but the BSA does accept other religions that do not believe in a God, as valid.. Some with gods, some more reverent to science.. I don't know the name but there was some religion accepted that was discussed on these forums that branches may have a supreme being and other branches did not so much (was it taoism or something).. Scouts who just have a gut feeling of something higher then them, but have yet to define it, much less call it a god..

 

These are all beliefs BSA will except, so they will contradict themselves on that piece of writing..

 

BSA contradicting themselves is not a very new concept.

 

We all must learn shades of gray John.. And be reverent with it.

[pchadbo]

After reading the thread I am going to slightly amend my position afer having some time to think.

"With regards to the questions Do you live the scout oath and law? If yes then yes. If no, then the answer is no"

I have to agree with others here, "A Scout is honest" is a standard that is not being me so therefore, no you are not being a good role model.

And, again,

"don't be upset when you are asked to leave an orginization that you obviously love for violating rules that you are openly defying."

 

 

Now if I can learn to type ;-)

(This message has been edited by pchadbo)

[evmori]

It is not discrimination to be denied membership because you do not meet the requirements.

 

Of COURSE it's discrimination vol_scouter. In the BSA's case it's legal discrimination, but it's still discrimination.

 

No it's not Merlyn. You don't meet the membership requirement, you can't join. Your rights are not being violated, either.

[John-in-KC]

In an adult, a-theism is not gray. It's black and white.

 

If I'm a COR, I will not sign the app. That simple.

 

If I'm a CC, and someone registered tells me they are atheist, I will instruct the recharter person not to renew them. That simple.

 

If I'm a program guy, and someone registered tells me they are atheist, I call the COR and suspend that person from duties immediately.

 

That is a line in the sand.

[moosetracker]

John - we agree! Atheism is black, where as catholic, Protestant, Jewish is white.. Where as taoism (could be white or many shades of gray)

A boy with no religion but believes in something higher, but can't define it is gray.

A religion with Gods not a god is gray.

Polytheistism or other beliefs based on science more then a being is gray.

 

atheism - is the only thing BSA will reject, because it is black.. It will except the shades of gray.. Even if there is no singular word of "God" attached to it.

 

I did not say that atheism is a form of a religion. I just stated it was a belief. It is a belief that there is no higher being..

 

Because it is a belief we who are following the scout law, must be reverent to them. Meaning we have no right to try to change their belief, think they are less then us because of their belief, or discount their belief as not being a belief at all.

[Oak Tree]

Technically BSA also rejects agnosticism.

 

There are multiple definitions of "discrimination".

 

At the most basic it is: to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately.

In this sense, the BSA is clearly discriminating as it does take note of the differences.

 

Another definition in dictionary.com is "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit;"

In this case, when an individual is objectively measured against the criteria and found not to meet them, this would not be discrimination by this definition.

 

I would tend to say that any group with membership criteria does discriminate. Basketball coaches discriminate against poor basketball players.

 

But that argument is just over what the word means - not over what the BSA does. I think we all agree the BSA does officially require people to meet the membership criteria.

[John-in-KC]

Most of what you call shades of gray are in my zone clear:

- I will accept a youth member seeking.

- I will accept a youth member claiming polytheism.

 

If I sat an EBOR and a Scout claimed a-theism, I would not vote to advance.

 

Adults are a different story. I expect them to have a faith, and that faith cannot be a faith without a godhead (mono or poly). Period.

 

As Kahuna has noted so often, Buddhism is a faith family, and fully accepted/embraced by Scouting.

[BrentAllen]

The underlying problem here is there are a lot of Troops that basically ignore the 12th Point of the Scout Law. Leaders in these Troops never discuss religion with their Scouts, never hold worship services on camping trips. Many probably don't recognize or celebrate Scout Sunday. The leaders aren't active in their religious institutions. As Tuoc Syag stated, no one in his Troop ever asked if he believed in God.

 

I don't see how a Troop can help a Scout learn to make moral and ethical choices in his life while totally ignoring religion.

I don't see how Troop leaders can take a real interest in each Scout while totally ignoring religion.

I don't see how Troop leaders can set an example for their Scouts of living the Oath and Law while totally ignoring religion.

 

I expect the ASMs in our Troop to be active in their religious institutions.

[studentscout]

Hello to all, I would say that my faith, Buddhism, is atheistic in that it does not require me to recognize any supernatural 'god'. I have discussed this with the CO (a Protestant church) and they have no problem with it. It has never gone beyond that.

This is not to say I do not experience reverence, I do. The source of my reverence just doesn't require a supernatural entity. From what I am reading here, John-in-KC would do whatever he could to have me eliminated from the membership. I am saddened by this. But fortunately (and curiously) I haven't encountered this attitude from my fellow scouters here in South Carolina.

[Tuoc Syag]

OGE, if you're still concerned I'm a troll who disappeared, once again, I am not. I have been following this very closely. However, most of the questions specifically directed to me have been resolved, and I haven't had anything I need to throw into the ring. While I am posting something, I suppose I will toss in my two cents about discrimination. I didn't mean discrimination in the negative connotation. I meant it in the "basketball coaches discriminate against bad basketball players" sort of way. It is fully legal discrimination, albeit subjectively justifiable discrimination.

[John-in-KC]

studentscout:

 

NO.

 

Buddhism (as I posted earlier) is a settled matter: It's a faith community. Scouting recognizes it. There are authorized religious emblems and adult awards:

 

National Buddhist Committee on Scouting:

http://bcascout.webs.com/index.html

* Metta Religious Award Requirements (Cubs)

http://bcascout.webs.com/info/MettaAwardRequirements.pdf

* Sangha Religious Award Requirements (Boys/Venturers)

http://bcascout.webs.com/info/SanghaAwardRequirements.pdf

 

Adult Religious Award

* Bodhi Award Overview/Requirements

http://bcascout.webs.com/info/BodhiAwardOverviewReq.pdf

 

If I were sitting your Eagle Board, I'd be asking you to explain your understanding of Buddhism and how it helps form the man you are

 

That's pretty similar to the question I ask for other faith groups.

[Basementdweller]

first off, all these IP addresses are logged on oge can look at them and see if cricket and gay scout are they same. He should do it.

 

 

Sounds like a troop in trouble to me. 7 athesist scouts????? Scout is trustworthy and reverent. How ever you justify taking the the oath sounds to me like you need some professional help. I could never live a lie for 6 years.

 

oge why don't you post the ip address. I can take it from there. All of the hypotheticals and smart alec comments can go away.

[moosetracker]

John - even better that you see these beliefs as clear cut acceptable.. I was just trying to push you towards excepting them as shades of gray due to your reaction to my statement of

 

 

But although I know reverent is to believe in some higher being (I could be wrong but it could even be someTHING higher then you, rather then of a higher being) (But, I know it does not need to be a god per-se)..

 

Where you challenged what looked like to me as an argument that it had to be a mono-theism God, and nothing else was acceptable, and backed it up with quotes out of BSA literature.. I don't know Budism, but if there is not higher being but more a belief in a community.. then I would call that a something..

 

So I think our perspectives are comeing closer and closer to an agreement..