2 Questions - Opinion Desired

[Stosh]

Hmmm... Troll or not let me weigh in on this one.

 

Trustworthy - have you been open and honest with your dealings with BSA?

 

Need I say more?

 

No to both questions. No matter what accolades one gets bedecked with, it doesn't change what's on the inside.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Tuoc Syag]

I suppose I should clarify what I mean about being openly gay. My district/council definitely does not know I am gay. Probably half of the older scouts in my troop knew, accepted it, and treated me no differently. In response to ClemLaw, I try not to bring up my sexuality unprovoked, any more than anyone may imply their heterosexuality, but I am open in that when it comes up in conversation, I don't fear outing myself. As far as I know, none of my troops' leaders know, but all of my friends and most of my family knows that I'm gay and treats me no differently.

[sherminator505]

The rest of y'all already know how I feel about this topic and why.

 

Tuoc, I'm sorry you feel like you have to hide. Hopefully it won't be for too much longer.

[Tuoc Syag]

As the OP, I truly am not a troll. For the purposes of this heated topic I have chosen to remain anonymous, but the facts I presented in front of you are accurate, and they are similar for hundreds of scouts.

 

I will admit that I have lied in that I am not reverent to any god, but I am reverent in the respectful sense. When a cub scout becomes a boy scout at the age of ~10-11, he knows little of himself in many ways. So when he's a Life Scout and realizes that his faith in science outweighs his faith in religion, how do you expect him to leave behind his best friends and great community service opportunities, as well as all of the advancement work he had already put in. And when he is a 15 year old finishing his Eagle project and realizes for sure that he is attracted to men and not women, how do you expect him to leave behind a milestone like the rank of Eagle.

 

Now, I understand that the program doesn't agree with a lot of my personality, and I now only attend an occasional meeting, but I wanted to make this point, that nothing changes about my leadership ability, or any of the other characteristics relating to being a role model, between those two questions. There are plenty of good-natured potential scouters that the BSA chooses to reject.

[OldGreyEagle]

So on your honor as an Eagle Scout you are not cricket624?

 

There are plenty of scientists who are not Atheists, if you do not wish to beleive in God, that is up to you

 

And please do not make me wish I had closed this thread early one

[Stosh]

"Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts?"

 

"I will admit that I have lied in that I am not reverent to any god,..."

 

Nothing wrong with doing good things for other people, but if one can't honest with oneself, it must be assumed that the person can't be honest with others as well.

 

No one said living up to the Scout Law was going to be easy, but at least trying to be honest is better than making no effort at all.

 

One can easily justify what one does is valid, but justifying what one IS is the issue here.

 

Anyone can do Eagle projects, service projects, lead, etc. but that doesn't mean that the person IS an Eagle, BE good, and BE a leader. When he dust settles one is better judged by who they are than by what they do. That's the moral issue that hasn't been address in the issue described here. Just because I do moral things doesn't make me moral, it just means I'm doing a good job of deceiving others and thus we're back to the first Scout Law.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

but the facts I presented in front of you are accurate, and they are similar for hundreds of scouts.

 

And yeh know this how? For a lad who pretends an interest in science, I'm curious if yeh can share your data. You do have data, don't yeh? Before making an unsupported assertion? Or are we to trust in "faith"?

 

Yep, no doubt a troll.

 

My answers to the two questions are yes (based on the evidence available until that point), and no (based on the additional evidence of deliberate deceit and misrepresentation).

 

I'm glad yeh enjoyed your time in Scouting. I wish yeh had gotten more out of it in terms of developing character and integrity. I wish yeh the best on your future studies and personal growth. May yeh develop the wisdom and maturity to realize "trolling" doesn't make yeh smart or cool, but integrity does.

 

Beavah

[BadenP]

Why wasn't this thread closed a long time ago from this troll, OGE are you slacking off again, lol?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OGE writes:

There are plenty of scientists who are not Atheists, if you do not wish to beleive in God, that is up to you

 

I disagree, OGE, it is not "up to him" (or anyone else) to decide what they believe.

 

Here's a simple test: sincerely decide to believe in the Norse pantheon for an hour or so. Not pretend, but actually, sincerely believe it. You won't have to worry about getting kicked out of the BSA, because you'll still be a theist.

 

So, do you think you can do the above? I don't think you can.

 

I find the above type of claim is often used to justify discrimination against atheists, since they "can" (and apparently "ought to") change their views through mere force of will. Even though that's impossible.

[perdidochas]

OGE,

 

Exactly. The whole "science vs. religion" is an artificial dichotomy. Some of us chose to study science because we admire the universe that God created.

[Tuoc Syag]

I swear I am not cricket624. I don't know why everyone dismisses this so quickly as a troll. I wanted to pose this question to a group I thought would have some interesting input. This is the only thread I have posted in, and it is the only thread I plan on posting in.

 

And Beavah, you've got me. I didn't do my research, but I can tell you I know of at least 6 or 7 atheists in my troop, most of them Eagles, as well as 5 other gay scouts, 4 of them Eagles, so while my estimate has no backing, know that I am not too rare of a case. The BSA is entitled to its own policy, but just know that there are many who wish it would change.

[moosetracker]

Tuoc - The reason people are doubtful is because of the username you selected and because rather then coming in and spending several months getting to know people.. Your first post is one that is a heated and emotional subject and has been discussed many many times over on these boards, but usually not by someone who openly admits to being both heated topics on his very first post to the boards..

 

Kind of makes you think, you posted to cause us to get into a heated arguement over it.. But if so unfortunately we have exhausted this subject matter in other threads, so we just end up stating our beliefs with little emotional heat..

 

You could be looking for a place to be truthful and open under the sheild of remaining anonomous, but unfortunately it is not the way to walk in and introduce yourself and find warm welcome, though some of us with sympathize..

 

You have chosen a hard path, but must have the courage to face it, as others stated not in a way that you flaunt it, but in a way that you are comfortable enough to not feel it is something to hide.. And you may say you are openly gay & atheist, but truely you are not, because you choose to hide it to belong to groups that will not welcome it..

 

You are trying to live in both worlds..

 

Merlyn_LeRoy - is openly an atheist.. He nor his son are in scouts, and he comes to this board to tell us how wrong we are for not accepting atheists (not sure his views on gays).. We accept him, we know the problem frustrates him, and he wishes to change it, but he does not do so by joining a troop and hiding that fact about him.. So when Merlyn comes along to tell us we are all unfair whatevers, we say "Hi, Merlyn.. How are you?"

 

[nldscout]

What you should do is if you truly are an Eagle Scout is tell us what troop you are in, and where its located so we can notify your CE so he can boot your ass out of scouting.

[packsaddle]

I'm trying to determine whether to close this or not. So instead, I ask for Tuoc Syag to answer my two questions:

1) What constructive purpose is in your mind for starting this thread and asking your questions?

2) How do you think starting this thread and asking your questions can possibly achieve that constructive purpose?

 

I don't particularly care if you're a 'troll' or not but if this gets to the point where it is just a quibble about something that cannot be resolved, this very REAL scientist who greatly values open and free discussion is going to seriously consider saving everyone a lot of time.

 

I await your answer.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[clemlaw]

Just for the record, I have no doubt that he is what he purports to be. It's understandable that he's not going to use his real name. I kind of doubt that he was a member of this forum before posting this, but if he was, it's understandable that he would sign up under a new identity.

 

I'm glad he's sticking around, but since he is, I would appreciate if he would answer my question, as many of us answered his questions.

 

And that question is: What exactly were you thinking for the five years between ages 13 and 18 when you held up your right hand and promised to do your "duty to God"?