The Whole Liability Thing

[OldGreyEagle]

Maybe a good idea, maybe not

 

A few years back, a Minnesota Vikings Football player Korey Stringer died of heat stroke during summer camp I think it was. Does anybody know how it was resolved? Was any guilt assessed agianst anyone? I know his death changed a few practices, but was any blame to any individual ever assessed?

 

Every year I seem to hear about some football player, high school or collge who dies in August Drills due to weather/heat related complicaitons. If you have closed to such a tragedy, how was it resolved? Any lawsuits? What was said and done and who/what prevailed. Doing anything physical requires physical exertion, what precautions are prudent?

 

It would be nice if every person on s trip was an EMT, even beter a paramedic, wait, maybe Physician Assistant...

 

At this rate perhaps every outing should have a fellowship trained Emergency Services Physician along, wait, make that two, in case the first Doc is the injured party.

 

What do you consider prudent precautions?

[SR540Beaver]

We had a local high school football player be the name of Kody Turner die in September 2010 from heat during practices. Can't find anything on the internet about any lawsuit or settlement.

 

A football player from Texas by the name of Reggie Garret died the same week as Kody.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2010-09-19-texas-reggie-garrett-quarterback-death_N.htm

 

Here is a case where a Max Gilpin died during football practice. The parents won a $1.75 million settlement for wrongful death.

 

http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2010/09/max-gilpin-school-football-death-suit-settles.html

 

High school football coaches are trained and educated in their profession. Scout leaders are not to the same degree. A little common sense goes a long way. If it is hot AND humid, you can often sweat fluids out faster than you can take them in. I'm hot natured and a heavy sweater. I can guzzle water and still get dehydrated. I disqualified myself from a high adventure trip backpacking trek when my legs cramped up 7 miles into a shakedown. You have to know your limitations and you have to watch those you are responsible for. Err on the side of caution or wind up in court.....even if the case has no merit or not.

[BrentAllen]

$1,000,000 liability umbrella policy. Yes, I have one. No, they are not very expensive, depending on what coverage you already have. Mine cost less than $200 per year. I added it mainly because my son is approaching driving age.

 

Edited to add, get as many of your leaders trained in Wilderness and Remote First Aid (notice the name change). We learned last night at our Council Summer Camp Kick-Off meeting that the course will be offered during Summer Camp at Woodruff. I don't know who is going to staff it. Don't just settle for one leader in the unit getting trained.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Beavah]

I think any time yeh have a young person die while under supervision of a non-parent yeh have a potential cause of action. Whether the family chooses to sue depends on their own values and whether they see the supervisors as "us" or "them". Yah, and to some extent on whether their own financial circumstances make the offer of a plaintiff's attorney tempting.

 

Simple fact in da U.S. is that kids die rarely, eh? So when a kid dies we feel like somebody should be at fault. That's an American thing. The rest of the world doesn't have that sense of entitlement to safety. They see accidents as accidents, eh? A tragic part of life where we come together and grieve, rather than pick sides and try to win.

 

It's hard to defend such cases, even when da facts are on your side. American juries see a dead kid and they want to find fault even if there's none to really be found. They tend to be caring folks and want to do something for the grieving family, not recognizing the cost to other families and businesses of that impulse. To some extent, insurance makes it worse, eh? If da real choice of the jury was "should the Scoutmaster and his family be bankrupted and all local scouting shut down?" then yeh might see more balanced judgments. But the presence of a magical lottery pile of money that can be tapped without seemingly hurting anyone else directly makes the natural bias easier.

 

Da thing about heat illness is that a few kids seem to be more susceptible than most others, eh? When the football player collapses and dies in August drills, there are 50 other peers standing around sweating and tired but typically none of 'em require treatment beyond a Gatorade. The symptoms mimic those of just being out of shape, and boys being boys they tend to suck it up rather than bow out when they're feelin' ill. Yeh see that in the comments of the scout who was "determined" to go through with the hike for his MB.

 

So even paid professionals, with professional trainers, miss the call on these things. Yeh might claim it's negligent, but I think it's often just that the call is hard to make. How do yeh tell that this one kid is especially susceptible?

 

A colleague of mine is an attorney and Catholic priest and canon lawyer. In church law, the duty of the legal representatives of both sides is to find the truth. I confess that sometimes when I see da behavior of colleagues in our adversarial civil system who are duty-bound to make the best case for their side, I find the alternative attractive.

 

BrentAllen, yeh should go for the $2M umbrella. It's not too much more if yeh tie it into your other coverage, and it means yeh tend to get higher quality representation when the insurer defends yeh, because they have more on the line.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

I dunno. This is a huge grey area in my opinion. Where does personal responsibility end and others liability begin? I keep thinking about the lady who went to McDonald's drive-thru and ordered coffee. She put the cup of coffee between her legs and drove away and the coffee slipped all over her lap and she suffered some nasty burns. She sued McDonald's and won! Why?

[jhankins]

Keep in mind, too, that as a unit leader, Charter Org board member or COR, you are covered under a more than $5M liability insurance plan through the BSA. As a unit leader that insurance is secondary to any personal insurance you might cover, but it does pick up after your personal coverage ends.

 

You can always contact your council office and ask to speak to the person in charge of insurance certificates (It's usually the office manager) and get a written copy of what the plan covers. I distributed copies to almost 40 CORs last night and all seemed relieved to even know this existed.

[OldGreyEagle]

Borrowed form the New Tour Permit is the following:

 

Unauthorized and Restricted Activities: The BSAs general liability policy provides coverage for bodily injury or property damage that is made and arises out of an official Scouting activity as defined by the Guide to Safe Scouting. Volunteers, units, chartered organizations, and local councils that engage in unauthorized activities are jeopardizing their insurance coverage. PLEASE DO NOT PUT YOURSELF AT RISK.

 

So, is this a threat that liability insurance could be waived if someone determines there was something unoffical going on? At what point do we figure it ain't worth it and move in to other activities and BSA dies because it's too dangerous in a financial liability way. And even if I am sure the Troop I serve does things according to Hoyle, long time posters may remember the Troop that did "sod surfing" as an unofficial activity. If something went awry in one of their surfing trips, would the BSA stand behind them or distance themselves?

 

I think the answer is, It depends, on the people, the courts, the judge, so many diferent people and all it takes is one to cause real problems.

 

So, where does it end? We may stop going into the woods, not because the kids don't want to go, but because the adults can't take the risk and neither can the BSA.

 

Is there a way to restore sanity or do we just wrap kids in 6 inches of bubble wrap and then something bad happens we get sued because 12 inches would have prevented injury?

[Beavah]

As a unit leader that insurance is secondary to any personal insurance

 

Unless they've changed somethin' recently, as a registered scouter the liability coverage is primary, not secondary, for everything except motor vehicle accidents. For MVAs and for non-registered adults serving as leaders, it's secondary.

 

B

 

[SeattlePioneer]

More evidence that lawyers rule the world through the American judicial system.

 

 

Although it's not quite a case of "ruling" in a positive way. Lawyers often can't stop themselves from using the heaviest legal artillery to squash whatever bug is available, especially if the bug has insurance.

 

Is there a quiet practice of Scoutmaster deciding to do less challenging activities in order to minimize the risk of injury and being sued?

 

 

 

 

[kari_cardi]

"I dunno. This is a huge grey area in my opinion. Where does personal responsibility end and others liability begin? I keep thinking about the lady who went to McDonald's drive-thru and ordered coffee. She put the cup of coffee between her legs and drove away and the coffee slipped all over her lap and she suffered some nasty burns. She sued McDonald's and won! Why?"

 

She won because McDonald's was serving their coffee at a temperature of 185 degrees, a temperature that produces 3rd degree burns almost instantly, is higher than other restaurants commonly serve their coffee, and was known by McDonald's to be a safety hazard as evidenced by the plethora of complaints they had already received about their dangerously hot coffee. And she was found to be 20% at fault, so it isn't as though the court didn't take her participation into account. But in other words, it wasn't an accident.

 

One of many reliable sources for the McDonald's case: http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

[kari_cardi]

I think that another reason parents pursue lawsuits is the cost of health care and the declining coverage provided by health insurance. I know that I would sue in a heart beat if that is what I needed to do to get the money my child needed for medical treatment. My husband and I went through a similar scenario a few years ago for one of my sons. As it turned out, he didn't need the extended treatment originally thought.

 

The family that would have been a target of any lawsuits lucked out in another way. Thanks to the large deductible we carry in order to have affordable coverage, our health insurance did not sue the homeowners and their homeowner's insurance to recover damages since they essentially had no costs. It all came out of our pocket. Still is, in fact.

 

So my point? Not everyone sues to blame someone else.(This message has been edited by Sasha)

[jhankins]

Beavah, I just consulted the COR training syllabus as well as the risk management paperwork my council office manager provided, and registered leaders are covered secondary to their primary liability coverage. The Chartered Organization, COR, board of directors are all covered as primary.

[Beavah]

Yah, that's interestin', eh? I note the change in the online COR training materials, but I also note that there is no change in the annual charter agreement for this year, which expressly states that the general liability coverage is primary for volunteers. So given da relative reliability of the BSA's web materials and the more binding nature of the charter agreement, I'd guess that there hasn't really been a change and the coverage is still primary for volunteers. Or at least da BSA is legally on the hook for it anyways.

 

That having been said, it has gone back and forth over the years, and given the way da economic downturn has impacted insurers, I could see a change as being possible. As always, I wish da BSA would stop being coy about this stuff and be up-front and timely with its information.

 

I'll try to remember to call and find out on Monday, eh? Unless Richard wants to jump in .

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

I know that I would sue in a heart beat if that is what I needed to do to get the money my child needed for medical treatment.

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

Sasha, I understand your sentiment, eh? We all would consider robbing banks if we felt we had to to protect our kids.

 

But that's what this is, eh? Robbing. Stealing. Extortion.

 

Just because our kids are ill or injured does not mean we are entitled to have other people pay us for their needs. Nor does it mean that it's OK to use da court system or the media to attempt to extort payment from others just because our kid needs it or we want compensation after we lose a child.

 

Civil tort law is there so that citizens can recover when someone else has genuinely caused them harm, eh? It's not a lottery, nor should it be confused with charity (a child has a need therefore someone should be genrous and pay). We allow civil suits so as to prevent people from taking real disputes into their own hands.

 

It's our responsibility as parents to assume risks, eh? If we send a lad on a hike with some other parent volunteers instead of paying $4000 for the Outward Bound trip, then we have assumed the risk of having non-professionals lead our boy in return for the free service. If we pay for and send then on the OB trek, then we assume the risk that things can happen in the mountains that no professional guide service can prevent. Including ordinary human error in judgment by the guides.

 

It's our job as parents to maintain adequate health coverage for our kids, or to take care of then when they are hurt, or to beg for charity if that's what it takes. Compensation is not owed to us for the ordinary risks of our choices, including the risk of others' simple mistakes. I hope we would all avoid robbing banks or extorting payments from others, no matter what our need was, or how much it seemed the bank "doesn't need the money".

 

As you did. And I thank yeh for making that difficult, and deeply ethical choice, as hard as it was. I hope your son is recovering well from whatever happened.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle007]

In regards to the McDonald's situation I would say this. I take personal responsibility when eating and drinking. If food is supposed to be hot, I "expect" it to be hot. If a drink is supposed to be hot, I "expect" it to be scalding hot. I have been taught as a child to blow on my hot food to cool it down and sip on my hot drink so as not to burn the hair off my tongue. I take personal responsibility. If I take a hot beverage from Starbuck's, I ensure that the lid is properly sealed. I don't just take for granted that the employee did it correctly. I help them to help me to help them, if that makes any sense. I also use common sense in everything I do. For example, I don't put a cup of hot coffee or any other hot drink between my legs while driving. If I should have a brain fart and do something that stupid then I assume the responsibility should I spill it and burn myself.

 

"I know that I would sue in a heart beat if that is what I needed to do to get the money my child needed for medical treatment." Wow! Really?

 

"Not everyone sues to blame someone else." No? But it sure sounds like that is in the forefront of people's minds.

 

Where in the world has personal responsibility gone? Does anyone not have the wherewithal to accept the fact that they mess up/are at fault and that it is foolish to try to blame someone else. In my opinion, clogging our civil system with unnecessary and frivolous lawsuits is one of the things that has our country is the bind that it is in. The mentality of "I don't like something so I think I'll sue" or "I need money (for whatever reason) so I think I'll sue" is so foreign to everything scouting is about. It keeps attorneys busy though.

 

People really need to put their big boy/girl pants on and take responsiblity of and for themselves. This is not a personal attack but an observation and an opinion for what it's worth!