A possible solution to the gay issue

[Scoutfish]

Camilam,

 

Okay, let's put it in the simplest terms here, because a rose by any other name is still just a rose.

 

Call it anything you want, but your entire arguement is doubletalk. You stated out bt telling Scoutlass that the proof of what was considered moral was that all CO's went along with BSA.

 

Then a few posts later, you actually said what I said ( the whole rose thing) wheh you strated that the CO's have no choice but to follow BSA's set policy.

 

So since CO's have no choice but to follow BSA's policy...that means they agree?

 

As far as morals go, like I said about a flat world, or slavery, or women having no rights...just because a majority or larger than the next group believes it, does not make it correct. Thus my flat earth comparison. At one time, a HUGE amount of people thought it was flat, Sailors feared sailing off the earth. Columbus was laughed at for thinking it.

 

I am not saying that you should abandon your beliefs. I am not saying they are to be changed.

 

I am saying that they are your beliefs. Just because alot of people agree with you does not make it correct.

 

Lest we know from now on that Elvis is alive and is a CIA test pilot who works at Area 51 flying around in those crashed UFOs from Roswell.

[packsaddle]

Elvis IS alive and he is the best guide you can hire in the Caribbean. I know..I've hiked with him on numerous treks.

[Scoutfish]

Well Pack,

that just proves that Elvis doesn't work at Area 51 !

[ScoutLass]

Camilam42, apologies on the handle, got it wrong scrolling up and down.

 

Since you wish to switch freely between philosophy and theology, it's only fair to point out that both are quite similar and the outcome depends on the ethics, morality and beliefs of the theologists/philosophers rationalizing those beliefs. Once you used religious arguments to back up a philosophical point, it became theological. This is why I have tried not to use those same forms of rationalizations. Theologythe pursuit to understand the nature of god, religion and faith. Philosophythe pursuit to understand life, the universe and everything. Both strive to rationalize their arguments. Neither are considered a science nor purely factual. So basically, much as the ancient philosophers did, we could talk around each other for a lifetime and still never solve anything.

 

As for local option, COs have local option in nearly everything else. Has it diluted scouting? Some say yes, same say no. A badly run program is a badly run program, and probably would be even if every pack and troop was run by national instead of individual COs. I do not believe nor have I seen proof other than empty attempts at rationalization from both sides that this dilution would happen. This is an opinion, not based upon any facts.

 

You say: Fortunately or unfortunately that isn't the case. The BSA runs based upon principles which they have determined to be best for Scouts and Scouting. I don't have to convince you nor do I have to not convince you. The choice is clearly yours. Accept the BSA policy and abide by it, or not. You don't have to like it, but regardless of your personal view, it is what it is.

 

You forget a third option, which is effect change in the BSA. I do not have to accept it when I can work to change it. That is the choice I have made, based upon both my theological and philosophical rationalizations. But you are correct in one thing -- It is not you I have to convince.

 

 

Barry -- I don't have a half century to look back on, only my own 35 years and even in that short time I have seen the moral compass of the general population move back and forth quite a bit. We need to look back further than 50 years though. The immoral behavior you speak of isn't new. I don't think the majority of people now find teen pregnancy, divorce, infidelity or porn acceptable. 2,500 years ago these were issues that caused the historical Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, to work out his precepts and rules for monastics and lay people to stop these issues which were a problem in his time. These are issues addressed in the Ten Commandments, by countless philosophers, in Victorian England, and in nearly any other culture in time or place we look.

 

I also would have to say that if something is found in nature it is natural. I'm not sure how it could be otherwise as that is the very definition of natural. As for the monkeys, that would be a whole thread on its own! I actually focused on southwest history/tribal anthro, so am not as well-versed in primates as others. Theories abound, and it differs on primate population and species. Boredom (or idle hands as you say) is one theory, though.

 

I must step away from this discussion for the holiday week. I hope everyone has an enjoyable Thanksgiving.

[Eagledad]

//Eagledad, care to share your explanation for what you think 'natural' is?//

 

Sure

 

I believe natural sex for all critters is the instinctive act to appropriate.

I believe only humans have sex without the desire to appropriate.

I believe sex without the desire to appropriate is only a self serving act for pleasure or emotion and not natural.

 

I don't know why two animals of the same gender act in what appears to be sex, but i dont think it is sex because they arent trying to appropriate. I dont think it is for pleasure, but I do think it is instinctive.

Well i do know why dogs do, it's an instinctive position of dominance for both genders, which might be the explanation for most animals.

 

Barry

 

Barry

 

[Eagledad]

//These are issues addressed in the Ten Commandments, by countless philosophers, in Victorian England, and in nearly any other culture in time or place we look.//

 

Exactly what I just said. Go read my first reply to you.

 

The difference between us is I do look at the facts and see where the conclusion falls out. You want your conclusion and choose to ignore what doest fit.

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

Barry...

 

Appropriate?

 

or

 

Procreate?

 

The only time I've heard of appropriation in animal sexual acts is the powerful male claiming one or more mates... Is that where you were going?

[Eagledad]

LOL whoops

 

Thanks John

 

Stupid ipad

[Scoutfish]

"These are issues addressed in the Ten Commandments, by countless philosophers, in Victorian England, and in nearly any other culture in time or place we look"

 

 

So let's be clear here first: I have my faith. I have my beliefs. I stick to them .

 

But having those beliefs and completely believeing in them does not make them hard fact.

 

Ten Commandments? How factual are they to Taoists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, and any other people who do not suscribe to Christianity.

 

Afterall, BSA and scouting as a whole are not composed only of the Christain Faith.

 

But go a bit deeper:

 

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

 

 

Ooops! We just judged something or someone as immoral and unnatural based on our own personal beliefs not any proven facts.... even though we are not experts on that person,or the "condition:" they have.

 

[shortridge]

I think perverse monkey sex needs to become a new corollary to Godwin's Law. This thread has certainly been educational!

[packsaddle]

You know there originally were 15 Commandments...until Mel Brooks dropped five of them and the tablet was broken? I saw it on the history channel.

 

Edit: H'mmmm, maybe that was another channel.

Actually, I was hoping for an explanation of 'natural' that was more general and could be applied to other aspects of the world besides sex. What IS this pre-occupation with sex?!!! Sex, Sex, Sex. We seem to be so doggone concerned about other people having sex, sex, sex. I haven't been as astonished since I heard Orin Hatch talking about 'Long

Dong Silver' over and over and over. Why this obsession with sex, sex, sex?!!! Good Grief!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[WAKWIB]

perverse monkey sex

 

The memory is dim, but I think that was the working title for an "inappropriate campfire skit" that I was a part of back in the 70's.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

 

//Eagledad, care to share your explanation for what you think 'natural' is?//

 

Sure

 

I believe natural sex for all critters is the instinctive act to appropriate.

 

So what's the "natural sex" for these lizards?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Grassland_Whiptail_Lizard

 

The Desert Grassland Whiptail lizard (Aspidoscelis uniparens) is an all-female species. It was formerly placed in the genus Cnemidophorus. These reptiles reproduce by parthenogenesis; eggs undergo a chromosome doubling after meiosis and develop into lizards without being fertilized. However, ovulation is enhanced by female-female courtship and "mating" (pseudocopulation) rituals that resemble the behavior of closely related species that reproduce sexually.

 

[Trevorum]

these lizards were obviously put here by Satan to confuse us and test our faith. just like fossils.

[WAKWIB]

Old Fossils and Sexually Confused Reptiles....

 

....on display daily on the forums of Scouter Dot Com!!