The other thread (for those wanting to discuss homosexuality)

[Scoutfish]

"What fundamental values of the BSA is the policy contrary to?"

 

Well, maybe the policy of non discrimination? Not necessarily in such a bold way, but it's there. BSA does not want scouts to make fun of, exclud or discriminate against people because of their ethnic background, socio-economic background or geographical diversity. Matter of fact, BSA even takes a non-denominational approach inn that they do not support or "publically" push one religion over another..yet, the fight over homosexuality is at least 99% a religious one. So in that effect, BSA does discriminate against religions that have a tolerance towards homosexuality.

 

Personaly, I have said that having a gay leader is not a concern..but having one talk about his preferences ( I do not believe being gay is a concious choice , mind you)is not something I want , condone or would allow.

 

BUT... I would not allow that for a heterosexual adult leader either. Talking about sexual preferences in the Pack, troop, crew, or ship setting is not what I expect or nor would I allow.

 

Now, before it was mentioned that you show it by how you live, such as a wife dropping you off, picking uyou up.

 

While I cannot speak for every scout every where....when mom comes to pick our scouts, the first thing they think is : "Aww man! We were just playing a good game!"

 

To say you are making a statement...well, having the kids would be the first statement, no?

 

As far as talking about it, I tink it's safe to say we mean actually talking about it. And like I said, I don't want either sexual persuasion talking about their conquests, what they did that weekend, who they "plowed". I do not want a straight , divorced male leader talking about what he did at the office party or how many women he picks up each month no more that I want the gay one to talk about what he did.

 

Now, as for a problem with gays in BSA..is it? Is it really? The only ones we would know about are the ones who stand up and refuse to hide it ( which I can't say I blame them) or those who do hide it and so far...nobody has found out yet. But you wouldn't jknow those guys would you...so maybe it's not a problem having gays in BSA, but just the flamboyant ones?

 

But to go that route, we have a guy at my company who we describe as "The gayest straight man we know". If not for the fact of his close strong marrage, we'd have thought him gay, because he just seems...well,really, really pretty feminine.

 

Think of people who have come out of the closet. Sure, with some of them, you accepted it years ago even if they denied it. Others were a true and genuine shock to you because you had no idea because they didn't act like it ..at least not in a stereotypical way.

 

But now, I am not trrying to change anybody's policies. I knew those poluicies when I joined BSA as an adult leader.

I didn't jopin because of it's exclusion, or a need to fight it. I joined because I agree with about 99% of the program , which is pretty damn good compared to my agreement with most other things in this world.

 

I may not agree with a few things, but all the other stuff outweighs it by far!

 

 

 

[ScoutBox]

Well put Scoutfish.. now if I could have put it that way..

[ScoutLass]

It is not helpful, courteous, or kind to exclude others based upon something that is really no one's business anyway. It is not reverent for those not have certain religious beliefs to exclude others based on sexuality. The 'clean' argument only applies to those who follow a religion that is morally against it, once again, not all scouts or scouters are of the same religion! I find minds that spend their time worrying about what others get up to in bed much less "clean" than that of the average homosexual man or woman.

 

It is a religious and moral argument that does not mirror all the religions and morals represented within the BSA. This is why local option is not just the right thing to do, but necessary in my opinion. I know of several temples that would love to charter a scout pack or troop as part of their youth program, but do not because of this issue.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Gary, I have answered those questions a number of times in my posts over the last eight years, and I don't really have time to rewrite the "standard essay" right now, but I think ScoutLass's post pretty much hits it on the head. For the moment I will add that I think that the BSA has always generally been a "welcoming", "for all boys" kind of organization (the latter was the tagline on the cover of Boys' Life when I was a boy, I don't know if it still is), that only excludes people who NEED to be excluded for the protection of the boys. Fifty or 100 years ago, it would have been a foregone conclusion that a gay person fell into that category. After all, homosexual conduct was probably illegal in every state. It is no longer illegal in any state (with some help from the Supreme Court), except among active-duty military personnel, and that will probably not be the case for very long. Back then, no state outlawed discrimination based on sexual orientation in employment, housing or public accommodations. Now, about half the states do. Like it or not, society is changing. Society is divided on this issue. It is time to allow units to make their own choices. Additionally, to take ScoutLass's point a little further, the BSA has turned certain religions into second-class religions. Such religions as Reform Judaism, many Episcopalian Churches and the United Church of Christ not only do not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, they believe such discrimination is wrong -- or if you will, immoral. These organizations cannot charter a unit without violating their own moral beliefs. I think that's wrong. And I don't think it is consistent with the BSA's core beliefs.

 

I guess I had a few more minutes than I thought. But that's basically it. I do not want your troop to be forced to accept a gay leader, but I do not want National telling my troop that they have to discriminate on that basis, either.

 

(Edited - I misspelled the name of my own religion!)(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[packsaddle]

NJ, if BSA has turned the Episcopals into a second class religion, where do you think they place the UUs?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[NJCubScouter]

Packsaddle, I knew there was a major one I was forgetting!

[Eamonn]

"a bigger point for many parents and organizations is the point about being an appropriate role model and adult mentor."

 

I have at times given some thought to; how good a role model am I?

Lord knows that I'm no angel.

I have however come to the conclusion that while I may not be perfect, I'm not all bad.

I do have several vices. There are people within this organization who think that because of these vices I really ought not be around our youth members.

While I'm OK following policy any kid who has been in my home knows that it wasn't the Marlboro Man who filled the ashtrays and that I'm not feeding Leprechauns shots of Irish whiskey.

I have never made a point of re-telling others about HWMBO and I get up to in our bedroom, but I feel sure that most kids today know and are aware that OJ didn't arrive via a stork who left him under a gooseberry bush.

I have had the opportunity to talk with several men who have been convicted of abusing and molesting children. (Both boys and girls.) While, like a good many of the convicts I chat with, a lot of these guys protest their innocence. So far none of the guys I have talked with have said that they are gay. Most are guys who are married with children. In a lot of cases they were convicted for sexually abusing their own kids in some cases they started the abuse with their own children and then moved on to abuse other kids.

It is rare for an inmate to admit that he is gay or homosexual. As this can put a target on his back. Homosexual activity is not allowed in the jails where I work. This doesn't mean that it doesn't go on and very often the guys caught claim that they are not gay or homosexual and that they just needed "An outlet."

While right now I can sit back and claim that I'm 100% straight and don't and never have found another male to be sexually attractive,I'm not sure what might happen if I was locked up in a totally all male environment for a number of years?

There was an episode of Nature on PBS a few years back, about a troop of gorillas. When there were no females around they engaged in homosexual activities, but when some females joined the group this activity stopped.

 

Living in a very small town, people do seem to talk (Gossip?)About others. At times some people can rightly or wrongly be branded as not being a good role model.

A lot of how truthful or real this is? Can depend on which side of the story you hear from who and which side you want to take.

This sort of thing can at times make things like the selection of adult leaders difficult.

Is the guy who has an ex-wife who claims that he isn't paying child support a guy we want as a youth leader? Who do we believe?

If? This is true is he a better role model than one of two guys who have set up home together and are sharing a loving caring relationship?

Nearly all the people I have met in Scouting don't wear their sex or their sexual preferences on their sleeves.

I would hope that it would make no difference if the adult was gay or not.

I have over the years had Scouts and older Sea Scouts talk about sex.

I have had younger Scouts ask me about masturbation. This did and still does put me out of my comfort zone.

I have tried to be as honest as I can be, telling them what I believe to be true. While not wanting or ever going into it too much.

When I have been driving a group of older Sea Scouts they have brought up things like abortion and homosexuality. For the most part I try my best to just let them talk and allow the subject to play out. But when I'm asked directly I do offer my opinion, letting them know that it is just that my opinion and nothing more.

 

We all would agree that there is no room in our organization for people who abuse others, in any way.

I have served as a Sea Scout Leader for a co-ed group. I have treated the female Sea Scouts with the same respect as I treat the male Sea Scouts.

I feel safe enough in my own skin and with my own sexuality to be able to say that So and So is a "Good looking kid". It makes no difference if the kid is male or female.

My hope would be that when we select people to serve as youth leaders that we select people who do really care about the youth that they will be serving.

No person who really cares about kids is ever going to do anything that will intentionally harm or abuse them, it makes no difference what so ever what their sexual preference is.

As to the role model thing?

All we can do is our best.

Some people will see us for what we are, while there are others who fail to see the good in anyone.

Ea.

 

[acco40]

Jerry Seinfeld: I'm not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. In many a subsequent episode, the "not that there's anything wrong with that" phrase was used repeatedly on a host of topics.

 

ScoutBox:I myself don't have a problem with a Homosexual being a member, leader or whatever in the BSA.

 

Sorry, for the obtuse reference.

 

For all of those Scoutmaster's - what has been or would be your response if a Scout simply asked you if being a homosexual was wrong? I think the worst response to that question would be something like -"I'm not allowed to discuss that with you, go ask your mother" or something to that effect.

 

Years before the current PSA, I reprimanded Scouts for using the "that's so gay" and "you're so gay" references wrt "lameness." Was I in error in placing my values on the Scouts on this issue?

 

 

[Mr. Boyce]

With society so divided on this issue, for so many different reasons, it still seems very, very strange to me that activists want to press their claims onto everyone by law.

 

Why not present reasoned, scientifically-based arguments, instead of having courts IMPOSE a decision upon the people?

 

I know and study politics, and I find the homosexual activists very---extremely--- egregious in what they do.

[GernBlansten]

People demanding equal rights is very---extremely--- egregious?

[packsaddle]

Yeah, it's almost as if they think they're supposed to be treated equally or something.

[GernBlansten]

Bordering on uppity, eh Pack?

[packsaddle]

Yeah, good thing there's laws to keep them in their place.

[ScoutLass]

I seem to remember something else that had to be forced onto a divided society by the courts back in 1964. Didn't go too well in several areas of the country, with everyone being divided and everything. Still, looking back, I think most people would agree it wasn't just a good thing, it was a good thing that should have happened a lot sooner.

 

You would think society would learn from history, but few do, so the courts too often have to step in.

[packsaddle]

As Lyndon Johnson predicted, it caused the South to go to the Republicans. He said, "I've just handed the South to the Republicans for fifty years, certainly for the rest of our life times." He was prophetic. I have to give the Republicans credit, they play it very well.