The other thread (for those wanting to discuss homosexuality)

[VigilEagle04]

NJCSer,

 

The thing is, that many people think that for some reason, being gay=being a pedophile. The evidence is in the opening post of this thread with the quotation marks around the word different.

[The Blancmange]

 

Some people are forgetting that the BSA policy only deals with those who are openly gay.

Perhaps you are on to something. If the BSA wanted to be intellectually honest about its policy, it should be changed from restricting only known or avowed homosexuals to affirmatively inquiring into the sexual orientation of its volunteers. There could be a question on the application and SE's would be required to contact references and ask them about it as well. That would certainly do a better job of weeding out those people who are actually likely to abuse children. They could call the policy "Do Ask, Do Tell."

 

Now, are either of you homosexuals?

You mean, like, flaming, or...

Well, it's a standard question we have to ask.

No, we're not homosexual, but we are *willing to learn*.

Yeah, would they send us someplace special?

[shrubber]

""The thing is, that many people think that for some reason, being gay=being a pedophile. The evidence is in the opening post of this thread with the quotation marks around the word different""

 

If the age of consent in, let's say Colorado, is 16. How does pedophilia enter into the equation?

 

(This message has been edited by shrubber)

[VigilEagle04]

Forgive me, I was just using the word in post 1. Some people seem to think that being homosexual=being a molester/rapist.

[prof]

Blancmange,

Thanks for the "Stripes" reference!

Bill Murry was at his best in that!

Steve

[Beavah]

The thing is, that many people think that for some reason, being gay=being a pedophile. The evidence is in the opening post of this thread with the quotation marks around the word different.

 

Yah, Vigil, whether or not we agree with 'em I think that there are probably a lot of people and parents in da Scouting community who feel that being gay = an increased risk of being the type of ephebophile who likes Boy Scout aged boys. Yeh might say they're wrong or they're overestimatin' the risk or that there's diminished risk if da person is "out". But perhaps there's no need to misrepresent da view as being broader than it is just to ridicule it.

 

Da quotes around "different", however do not mean what yeh claim. They mean that some people believe that pedophiles and ephebophiles are a fundamentally "different" sexual orientation. Heterosexual pedophilia or ephebophilia is not a heterosexual orientation under that view. There might be some merit to that, even, when it comes to pedophilia. Leastways, DanKroh makes that argument from da research literature.

 

I personally think da case is weaker for teens. An older fellow who finds his teen son's girlfriend attractive I think is still hetero, eh? Maybe a bit immature or insecure, but still hetero. That doesn't mean that he's at all likely to molest or seduce his son's girlfriend, eh? But the attraction is there.

 

Does it mean he's at slightly increased risk? Da GSUSA think so . One can imagine with access and opportunity and a certain lack of moral fiber and some alcohol... certainly such things have happened.

 

Is it worth worryin' about? Nah. There's an increased risk of death when driving at night or in the rain, but it's small enough and the benefits are high enough that almost all of us drive at night or in the rain. Same is true here. But do we ridicule someone who avoids driving at night? Or do we misrepresent 'em as believing that all night driving will lead to accidents? Probably shouldn't do that either.

 

Beavah

 

Just throwin' some more logs on da fire, packsaddle. It's gettin' cold up in these parts.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gary_Miller]

I don't think the argument has as much to do with openly gay individuals possibly molesting young boys and men, as we think.

 

I think it has more to do with morals and values that BSA and most of its charter Organizations stand for and want taught to young people.

 

A openly gay individual believes that being gay is not only natural but its an appropriate life style. Most of BSA's Charter Organizations don't believe this way.

 

As a parent I do not want my children taught that being gay is natural and therefore an appropriate life style. As I don't believe that being gay is natural, in fact I believe it defies all of nature.

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Beavah says:

 

Just throwin' some more logs on da fire, packsaddle.

 

I think there's a word for that on the Internet... starts with a T. Beavah, you've gotten upset when I've used that word in connection with you in the past. But if the bridge fits, wear it. (Or, lurk under it, to keep the analogy going. Eh?)

[Beavah]

Yah, sure, NJCubScouter. If you're in to callin' people names, yeh can call me any name yeh wish. I don't mind. Those things with a "T" have a thick skin, eh?

 

While I was continuin' a conversation that I don't find particularly interestin' (because I'm more interested in Scouting), my response was a genuine contribution to da conversation. Unlike this post and da previous one.

 

B

 

[NJCubScouter]

Yeah Beavah, like you never called anybody in this forum a name. You're too funny.

[NJCubScouter]

Hey Beavah, if you want to have an actual discussion, I have a question for you: Do you think the BSA should change its policy to allow units to appoint openly gay leaders? Yes or no. You don't even have to give a reason for your answer if you don't want to. I'm just wondering where you stand.

[CalicoPenn]

Child molestation isn't about sexual orientation. It's about power. Power of the molester over their victim.

 

Heterosexual men who molest male children aren't closeted homosexuals (and that is what Beavah is suggesting). They are victimizing a less powerful individual who happens to be male.

 

There have been cases of homosexual men who have molested girls. That doesn't make them closeted heterosexuals.

 

Sexual orientation is defined by your consensual relationships with ADULTS - not by a criminal act.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Child molestation isn't about sexual orientation. It's about power.

 

Yah, yeh keep sayin' that. But then if yeh go and listen to the interviews with the molesters, they talk in detail about the type of youth they are sexually attracted to, their affection for 'em, the grooming behaviors, etc. That sure sounds like orientation to me. And there have been historical cultures that permitted that sort of "loving" mentoring relationship.

 

There's plenty of homosexual adult sex that's about power. Hetero, too, especially in some male-dominant cultures. "Power" in relationships doesn't change orientation, it just affects how it's expressed. I'm thinkin' things are a bit more complex than what you're layin' out.

 

Sexual orientation is defined by your consensual relationships with ADULTS - not by a criminal act.

 

So the law now determines sexual orientation? If we change da criminal statutes, does that magically change the person's orientation? If an 18 year old is sexually attracted to a 15 year old cheerleader, that makes him not heterosexual because of the statute?

 

Funny that.

 

I think yeh can make a fine case that da increased risk of molestation from having a gay Scoutmaster is negligible. But the dancin' with the definitions bit is a bit silly, IMHO.

 

B

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Beavah, that's like saying rape is a crime of passion. It isn't. It's a crime of violence.

[CalicoPenn]

"But then if yeh go and listen to the interviews with the molesters, they talk in detail about the type of youth they are sexually attracted to..."

 

Yes, let's use interview with criminals trying to deny that they are committing criminal acts by trying to justify what they are doing is an act of love and not an act of violence to develop an argument that heterosexual males that molest male children are really closeted homosexuals.

 

I'll repeat it once again, and add a clarification - sexual orientation is determined by our consensual relationships with, and attraction to, adults.

 

A married man who sneaks around and has sex with adult males is either a closeted homosexual or is bisexual. A married man who victimizes a male child but would never have sex with a male adult is not a closeted homosexual, is a criminal.

 

But by all means, go ahead and try to determine if the outwardly heterosexual, married man that is signing up to be one of your Scout leaders is secretly a closeted homosexual who will molest the Scouts, if that's your viewpoint. Good luck with that.