City bans: So how do they actually impact things on the ground?

[The Blancmange]

 

Scout units used to keep Jews out, but over time units integrated.

I'm just curious whether that was universal. An 88 year old friend of my family, a jew, earned Eagle Scout in the late 30's. Based on the area where he grew up, I suspect many of the other boys in his unit were Jewish as well. If this was indeed common, it must have changed shortly after BSA's origination.

[NJCubScouter]

ScouterMyth, first of all, thanks for NOT providing a more exact description, I think we get it. Second and more importantly, I would be curious to know how many service members have been removed for having "unnatural copulation" with a member of the OPPOSITE sex. I suspect the number is very very small. The fact is that this code section, and the current policy, does allow people to be removed simply for being gay, and they are being removed. The fact that they may tell someone they are gay (in what they thought was a private conversation) leads to the inference that they have had "unnatural copulation", because without getting into go-ask-your-parents territory, that's the only kind available. Whereas if the military finds out that a male and female are in a sexual relationship, they could be acting in a "natural" or "unnatural" manner, we just don't know unless we peek through the window. This is one reason why the policy is unfair.

 

Blancmange, I do not think that exclusion of black people, Jewish people and others from Scout units was universal. In some parts of the country it probably was CLOSE to universal, in other parts it may not have existed at all. Even in parts of the country where there might not have been an official exclusion, I think people just naturally gravitated to their own "kind" more than they feel compelled to today. My father (who was Jewish, as am I), was a Scout in the late 30's/early 40's, and from my conversations with him, I believe his troop was virtually all-Jewish, and chartered to a Jewish community center. He lived in a diverse city in New Jersey, and I am sure the Italians had their troop, the Irish had theirs, the Polish etc. (I'm not quite sure how the blacks fared in that place and time.) He once told me an interesting story that took place while he was Scoutmaster, and I'm guessing this was in the late 40's or early 50's. There was a neighboring troop that was in the process of folding, and this troop happened to not follow the birds-of-a-feather idea, but rather had a few Jewish kids, Italians, Irish, etc. and a couple of black kids. My father's troop was apparently the most logical one to invite them in. The CR (or whatever it was called at the time) told my father that the community center wished for the troop to remain all-Jewish. My father said fine, then get another Scoutmaster. The result was that the "diverse" castoffs found a home in the now newly-diversified troop, with my father remaining as Scoutmaster. I'm kind of proud of that story.

[Scoutfish]

>

 

OneVoice...You are missing my point.

 

Why trust the media at all. They post numbers and results that get the most attention of their percieved market.

You might have noticed that I said ythat all the number could also be lower than stated.

 

I do not define right or wrong by any body elses opinions or by polls. I define it by my own moralistic feelings.

 

But by the tone of your post, you jumped on the numbers that supoported your beliefs instead of ...even for one second...considering that:

 

1) In the area polled by the NYT, those numbers may indeed be correct. Might be the poll was taken in Greenwhich Village or a similar neighboring area.

 

2)The numbers you want to be true , may themselves be over ( or in this case) under stated.

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Sooooooo, A person who takes on a religious vow of celebacy?

 

Anybody who uses birth control?

 

A male who has a vasectamy?

 

Couples who choose not to have kids?

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

NJ, You can bet your ass...ets I'd be damn proud of that story!

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

I dont think city bans have any impact.

 

But what does is the delusion some scouters have that the BSA is some great moral compass and the accompanying "holier than thou" attitude.

 

A large segment of the population apparently doesn't find being gay or atheist in contradiction with all the things scouts are supposed to be - brave, loyal, trustworthy - and even reverent & morally straight.

 

I think Horizon said it beautifully. Even if someone isn't excluded from Scouting, they may not want their son to be part of it because others are excluded - for reasons that are alien to what they believe in.

 

NC

[Penta]

NJCubScouter: You raise good points. I don't know if it's dumb luck or what, re Monmouth Council in particular. (There's also a question of "Who the heck would they merge with?", now that I think about it: Culturally, Monmouth and Ocean counties exist as nearly a pair, but the distance factors make any council covering both counties, let alone any others, seem unlikely, offhand. Economically, you might bunch Monmouth in with Mercer and Northern NJ, but the cultural differences are pretty vast. Population-wise, it gets harder, because the population is pretty-well bunched up on the coast in Monmouth and Ocean. You can't, I think, discount the sheer logistics - NJ looks like a tiny state, until you try to travel in it.)

 

So far as where the thread should be, I was hoping to keep the politics out of it and get (relatively) dispassionate "ground truth", but that was probably optimistic.

 

Scoutfish:

 

NYT publishes virtually all of their polling data; you can usually look it up. Having *done* a few of their polls when I worked as a survey interviewer during college, I feel confident in saying it was most-likely a Random Digit Dial telephone poll covering at *least* all of NYC's area codes. But usually, because the Times likes to see itself as more of a national paper than a New York paper, they go for the entirety of the lower 48. (Nobody I know does AK or HI, the time differences would make telephone polls insanely expensive to run for very little benefit.)

[ScoutMythBuster]

City bans have a huge impact... I had parents that would not sign their kids up for a group that "the city was kicking out of the city" That was how some people interpretted the Philadelphia vs Cradle of Liberty. Big cities, like Philadelphia run very negative smear campaigns. Many people saw the BSA as Public Enemy # 1 when the suit first started. Here we are 7 months (give or take) after the verdict and I still hear Boy Scouts are still around.

 

And NJCubScouter, believe it or not people are kicked out for it, same sex and opposite sex couples. I knew a gunny who was kicked out because him and his wife were into kinky swinging and it came to light. So yes, they prosecute it both ways. (no pun intended)

[NJCubScouter]

Penta: I believe Ocean and Atlantic are already in a council together. Jersey Shore? But then that is your part of the state, not mine. My guess is that if Monmouth were merged, it would be with the Central Jersey Council (Middlesex and Monmouth). Yes, it would be a stretched-out council and perhaps it would have "vast cultural differences", but I think it would still be less on both those fronts than the Patriots Path Council. This council includes the city of Elizabeth on one end, Stokes State Forest on the other, and the "horse country" of northern Somerset County in between, and lots of other kinds of places as well.

 

I don't think the BSA cares about any of that. They care about whether the council is supporting itself financially.

 

You can't, I think, discount the sheer logistics - NJ looks like a tiny state, until you try to travel in it.

 

Yup, I've lived here all my life.

[ScoutMythBuster]

NJCubScouter, I agree. They don't care about anything but the almighty $$. I live near center city Philly and I have 2 Scout Camps 1 hour away (Hart and Delmont)but for BSA resident Camp we have to go out to Resicca Falls. Hart and Delmont is near the center of the Council but the more wealthy people live out towards Ressica.So Hart and Delmont are no longer a viable option. They have also shut down Treasure Island with no definite plans to reopen it.

[Eagle92]

SMB,

 

Somewhere in the archives of this site, TI's closure was discussed and an actual board member discussed in some detail why they needed to do it and what was happening, i.e. the constant flooding.

[eagle77]

SMB,

If all you are looking to do is go to your council camps, then your right you are limited. Just a little history because I am from the old Philadelphia Council. Delmont and Resica falls were the council camps for the old Valley Forge Council, Hart and TI are the old Philadelphia Council Camps. When Valley Forge and Philadelphia Council merged they all became Cradle of Liberty. The main problem here was all the money that was put into keeping TI running, little money was used to upgrade and improve Hart. Delmont's problem I believe is the location of the mess hall. It sits right along Uniami creek and if I'm not mistaken was flooded out and is no longer used for summer camp but is used for weekend camping. Have you looked at the camps in the neighboring councils? I know in Bucks County you have Ockonickon (which is actually closer then TI). There is also Trexler and camp Minsi to north. If it was really all about the $$$ TI would have been shut after the first major flood that damaged the northern island (eagle Island) which was the council's Explorer camp, and the main body of TI itself.

[perdidochas]

Novice,

 

Can an atheist truly do his duty to God?

 

[onevoice]

Posted by novice cubmaster: "A large segment of the population apparently doesn't find being gay or atheist in contradiction with all the things scouts are supposed to be - brave, loyal, trustworthy - and even reverent & morally straight."

 

What exactly does a "large segment" mean? Because I think the vast majority of the population would understand that reverent and atheist; and gay and morally straight, are exclusive positions. Even if they don't believe the terms should be in scouting.

[onevoice]

Posted by horizon: "I don't. I level the bigot charge at people who are bigots. There are plenty who I disagree with, but when someone decides that my friends have a birth defect that makes them unworthy and unwelcome in Scouting - that person is a bigot. Period."

 

I knew that would get a rise. But it is undeniably true. Why do you assume "defect" is a bad word? It simply means an imperfection that affects utility. Any living object that is born with a condition that impairs their continuing their species, by definition has a defect. It is unlike scoutfish's other examples, which are clearly choices. The statement was in regards to whether gay is biological. You have just assumed I have something against gays, I do not. I have gay friends raising a child that I would be happy to have in my pack. However, they are also atheists, and see no reason to enroll their child in a organization that has a belief in God at its core. They have no desire to change BSA to their thinking, why do you?

 

I said in my first post in this thread that the largest problem facing scouting is the breakdown of the family. My issue with gays is that their example is just more fuel on the fire of bad family role models, and that they do not fit within the boundaries of the Oath. I have no beef with them personally.

 

Change the oath and law, and let them in. Or don't change it and keep them out. But don't pretend that the Oath and Law don't mean what they say.

 

Any other interpretation of the oath and law is wishful thinking. It reminds me of a quote by Justice Scalia, "What is a moderate interpretation of the text? Halfway between what it really means and what you'd like it to mean?