City bans: So how do they actually impact things on the ground?

[Penta]

So, I'm at my local community college today, getting ready for a class (Yes, at 7:05 in the morning - class is at 8), and one of the other paralegal students (virtually all are 20+ years older than me, to explain this next) in this morning mentions how their son/grandson (I want to say grandson, but am not sure and not going to ask) is having their Eagle Court of Honor soon and how they're planning for it. So this wanders into a conversation about Scouting generally...And one of the other people in the room asks how all the bans and stuff have impacted Scouting. I winced a bit - as my info indicates, I live in Monmouth Council's territory, and while Monmouth Council was the Council involved in BSA v Dale, one of the things nobody mentions in describing the impact of the lawsuit upon the BSA is the impact it had upon the Council: The lawsuit seems to have kneecapped them financially - while I don't have numbers, it's seen most obviously by the fact that they sold off their Council Service Center (or at least moved out of it and are supposed to be selling it), which had been right down the street from my house on prime real estate (owned tax-free, if I remember right!) right across from Township Hall along a major thoroughfare, and moved it to a fairly isolated location, particularly by comparison...And the fact that they nearly went bankrupt, I believe. (I still have zero idea how they managed not to sell off Quail Hill (the in-council camp) or Forestburg (the out-of-council camp in upstate NY).)

 

But the question is a good one, even if the conversation where I am is moved on.

 

The bans on support some jurisdictions have implemented don't really show up here, to my knowledge - Scouts in Monmouth County NJ still get much the same sort of support from the community we always have, though without knowing better I'd suspect that the situation hasn't been helpful. But locally, the Scouts don't seem to be as dependent on local towns/cities to, say, act as charter organizations. That's not the case elsewhere, I know.

 

So what have you seen where you are?

 

What I've seen:

 

Locally, as I said, not much impact (from what I can tell), except that maybe things got a bit difficult financially, because our Council was the party to the BSA v Dale lawsuit that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Certainly the roster of units on the website looks the same as I recall it from 10-15 years ago.

 

In the region, different story. I'm given to understand (per the NY Post) that Scouting in New York City got hurt pretty bad when the City banned the BSA from using City-owned facilities, using City organizations as COs, or the like. Mutterings like "500 scouts in all of Manhattan" were voiced in February, which made my eyes bug out.

 

But maybe others here can provide ground truth on that situation, or the situation elsewhere in the US.

[JerseyScout]

At the other end of the state, our numbers have been in free fall for decades. Our council was forced to merge in 1998 or so after being around since the '20s, merging another council that had already been formed out of a merger. A few years later, our district merged with another district, forming a new one with the boundries of the old council. Just in the last few months, our council went from four districts to three with another merger.

 

Our district itself has fewer troops than it did ten years ago, and some of those troops themselves are in trouble (I've run into a few guys at roundtable who have 5 or 6 Scouts total).

 

My old pack went from a hundred kids to zero in a four year span due to bad management. My old troop (which I returned to and am now Scoutmaster of) went from 100 kids in 2000 to about 15 by 2006, although we have more than doubled that number since I took control in Fall of 2007.

 

Why is it dying slowly dying off? It's very complicated, but bad press about the Supreme Court decision and an ongoing lawsuit between the BSA and the nearby City of Philadelphia is certainly NOT helping us at all. I've had some brave parents tell me to my face that they would never consider signing their kid up for Scouts purely because of Scouting's bad reputation.

 

Its hard to quantify any one reason (city bans, etc) for the downward movement, but its definately there.

 

The question is, what do we do to change the organizations reputation?

[onevoice]

I'm confused, what is scoutings bad reputation?

 

We are being torn apart because society as a whole has degraded.

The conservative social values that scouting is built upon are fading, and anyone who dares disagree is labeled a bigot. Not just acceptance of alternative lifestyles, but outright promotion of them. Scouting works to reinforce values, not generate them out of thin air. It's hard to develop values in boys that come from families with none, or interest parents in ideals that they thumb their noses at. What does responsibility mean to a boy who has never seen any at home? It is not just gays, a much larger problem by the numbers is the breakdown of families. 40% of all births in the US now are to unwed mothers, and of those mothers, only 40% even live with the fathers. There are no repercussions for these absent fathers, and now society doesn't even frown upon them. How many of the scout laws are those fathers breaking? The numbers are even worse in the minority communities.

 

The numbers have doubled in 30 years. For reference, in 1960, 9% of kids lived in single parent homes.

 

I'm doing my best to affect the lives of the boys in my circle, whether scouts or sports, but sometimes I feel it is just a finger in the dike.

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

IMHO, Scouting's main bad rap has to do with the ban on gays. A survey this summer found for the first time that a majority of Americans support same-sex marriage, and that number is only higher among people under age 30. National isn't just losing the battles with cities and local governments, but it's losing the demographic wars as well. The ban is seen as bigoted among the next generation of parents, many of whom have close gay friends or relatives. And they don't want their children to be members of a bigoted organization. Scouting's not even on their radar when it comes to activities for their children.

 

I disagree that Scouting was built on "conservative social values." Read the original handbooks. There's nothing written by BP, Seton or Beard that laid down the anti-gay, anti-girl and anti-atheist lines that the cabal in Irving has drawn in the sand on our behalf. Seton cheated on his wife with his secretary, whom he later married. Is that a conservative social value?

 

Being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly - those are all universal social values, neither conservative nor liberal.

[boomerscout]

If I've read the chart correctly, there are fewer boys of Scout age right now than there were in the 70s. So, membership will naturally decline a bit.

How do we fight other declines? That is one goal of community service. And, get the pix and write-up into the papers so the entire community knows of a job well done. Don't hide your light under a bushel basket

[onevoice]

shortridge

You are confusing conservative social values with "conservative" political positions. By conservative I meant traditional, and the origins of scouting were nothing if not traditional in social aspects. The gay issue is a red herring, the opponents don't really care if scouts allow gays, they are just out to discredit us because they don't believe in anything we stand for. Really, how many potential openly gay scout leaders are there that have been prevented from joining? Gays make up a ridiculously small part of society, but not in the news. Gallup asked Americans, in an open-ended format, to estimate the percentage of American men and the percentage of American women who are homosexual. The average estimates were that 21% of men are gay and 22% of women are lesbians. The facts? In 2000, the U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households. We have been torn apart over an issue that barely exists. I haven't seen any numbers, but I would guess that gays with children in scouts is another ridiculously small subset of gays. Personally, I would be upset with any "leader" that worn his or her sexuality on their sleeve to the extent that it would impact young boys, gay or straight.

 

I dont care if Seton cheated on his wife with his secretary, it doesn't make it right, doesn't invalidate other ideals, and surely doesn't mean I will teach boys it is ok. No one is perfect, but that doesn't mean we all shouldn't strive to "Do Our Best"

 

[onevoice]

Posted by shortridge "A survey this summer found for the first time that a majority of Americans support same-sex marriage"

 

That statement is absolutely false. No ifs, and or buts, this is wrong.

 

The numbers will eventually get there though, especially at the rate marriages have deteriorated. When it is all said and done, gays will have the right to do something that their struggle to obtain has helped destroy.

[shortridge]

That statement is absolutely false. No ifs, and or buts, this is wrong.

 

OK, I guess the New York Times is lying, then.

 

"A CNN poll this month found that a narrow majority of Americans supported same-sex marriage the first poll to find majority support." - Aug. 21, 2010

 

For those still in denial: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/weekinreview/22gay.html?_r=1

 

==========

 

I totally agree with boomerscout that one of the chief obstacles to growing Scouting is that only the negative stuff gets big press. But rather than condemn the media (of which I'm a member), people who support Scouting should be promoting our successes. That means finding good stories and telling them, loudly and proudly. I've written on that subject at great length before in other threads - how to spread the word about what your unit is doing - and won't rehash here. I'll just say that if the only voice is a negative one, that's what's going to get heard.

[onevoice]

Originally posted by shortridge "OK, I guess the New York Times is lying, then."

 

Actually, the NYT lies and spins the news the way they want quite often.

 

A CBS poll 8/24/2010 said 40% supported gay marriage, Gallup poll says 44%, FOX poll says 37%, ABC says 47%,

 

http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

 

Even the poll you cite doesn't say what the NYT says it does. The poll asks whether "Americans think the Constitution provides same-sex couples the right to marry" and a separate question about whether they think it "should". I wasn't directly asking whether they personally support gay marriage, ie it was partially a question of what they have been lead to believe constitutional rights should be. Such a poll can obviously be biased by peoples ignorance of the constitution, and conventional wisdom they have been fed by sources like the NYT.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Our council hasn't seen much change to the finances as far as I can tell, at least as a result of the United Way bans.

 

Many United Way units continue to support Scouting - such is the case for the council of my youth. They don't appear to have seen much change either.

[Horizon]

My understanding is that we took a hit on the United Way drop-off, but we have some deep pocket donors in the area who made up a lot of the difference.

 

The God/Girls/Gays issue does cost us some adult leaders, and also some Scouts. I know of more than one Eagle Scout who won't put their sons into Scouting due to the gay ban. I know several other families who won't consider Scouting for the same reason.

 

Our local school board has to be careful to keep the school available for any non-profit that requests, so that they don't get accused of giving the Scouts preferential treatment. I donate at the maximum level to a School Board candidate each election to help keep our relationship strong. This candidate calls me whenever a Scout / school issue comes up.

 

The Newport Sea Base made itself open to all kids, which seems to have spared it from the guns of the ACLU so far. Ditto the Outdoor Education Center, though we own that land as opposed to the lease we have on the Sea Base.

[onevoice]

Originally posted by Horizon:

"The God/Girls/Gays issue does cost us some adult leaders, and also some Scouts. I know of more than one Eagle Scout who won't put their sons into Scouting due to the gay ban. I know several other families who won't consider Scouting for the same reason"

 

That attitude is something I just don't understand. The girls issue is a non starter, Girls have their own organization - why would they want to be boy scouts? The answer is they don't, they just want an issue to hammer Boy scouts about because their organization is not near as successful. The issue of God is another headscratcher, God has always been part of scouts, if someone wants an organization without God, why don't they start their own? The answer is they wouldn't have enough members to shake a stick at, so they try to tear down a successful organization that they can't be. The gay issue is the worst though, it is a made up issue that in the real world wouldn't have any effect on 99.9999% of scout units. Just how many gay adults are there that want to be in scouts? My guess is that answer is effectively zero, because of the small number of gays in the population, and the even smaller number with scout age boys. I wouldn't expect ANY adult to project sexuality on boys, gay or not, and think they would quickly run afoul of YPT if they did.

 

 

[Horizon]

onevoice: It is not the number of gays who want to be in Scouts, it is the NON-gay parents who do not want to put their son into an organization that they see as bigoted. I could ban all African Americans from my Troop and it would only impact 1 Scout out of 100. However, another 99 would quit my Troop if I did something so racist. The BSA has an image in the community of anti-gay bigotry, and that costs us a lot more than just membership among gays.

 

Gays: We are still seen as one of the best groups out there. I am working with a lesbian couple right now to find a Pack that will take their son without giving them too much grief (since they can not register as adult volunteers). I have also talked to a gay male couple with a son about how to get their boy into Scouting when the time comes.

 

God: I have had one Scout quit after deciding he would follow his father's footsteps into becoming a "fundementalist atheist". (I use this term to describe those atheists who can be just as obnoxious as some Koran-burning, military-funeral protesting self-proclaimed Christians.) I don't think our stance on God hurts as much, since religion is such a part of life in the US.

 

Girls: I have several younger siblings of my Scouts who can not wait until they qualify for Venturing. The GSA does not have the same cachet as the BSA, so they want to join. I don't think that our single-gender rules hurts us the least, thanks to the existence of the GSA.

[nldscout]

I don't think the decline is any one issue, but life in general. If it was cause bythe Gay issue, then why has GSUSA suffered the same kind of declines as BSA?

[Scoutfish]

"and a separate question about whether they think it "should". I wasn't directly asking whether they personally support gay marriage, ie it was partially a question of what they have been lead to believe constitutional rights should be."

 

 

Pretty much the same thing in this particular case. You can pretty much assume that if those who were polled were steadfastly against gay marrage - they would probably not say it should be a right...constitutional or other wise.

 

"Actually, the NYT lies and spins the news the way they want quite often.

 

A CBS poll 8/24/2010 said 40% supported gay marriage, Gallup poll says 44%, FOX poll says 37%, ABC says 47%, " And those media outlets never spin anything? EVER?

 

GRanted, all media will tweak, dressup and "adjust" info in order get people interested. The actulal number may be higher. They could be lower.

 

Also depends on where you go right down to the difference between one neighborhood to the next.