Illegal Drug use

[sailingpj]

In the previous thread there was talk about the benefits of some drugs for people with ADD or ADHD. What thoughts do you all have on people who use these drugs to do better in school or at work? The link below is kind of what I am thinking about.

 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/brain-enhancing/

 

I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion that the article reached, but I do think that something like that might be worth looking at for certain circumstances. However I do not agree with that kind of thing being commonplace. I also do not think that students should be allowed to use drugs like that to get ahead.

 

I do think that research should be done to determine what the long term effects of drugs like that are.

 

What do you all think? Should brain enhancing drugs be made legal? I realize that it is currently illegal for students to use drugs like that without a prescription, but for those who do manage to get their hands on those drugs is it cheating for them to use them when taking a test or something?

 

btw, if anyone saw episode 11, season 5 of Boston Legal you will get where I am coming from here.

[packsaddle]

Or you could have referred to the episode of Star Trek, "Mudd's Women" still with William Shatner providing comic relief. Oops, I need to be more respectful of these historical documents.

 

Anyway, the Wired article is just a summary of a commentary in 'Nature'. If anyone would like to read the commentary here's a link:

http://npp.wisc.edu/newsarchive/PDF/TowardsResponsibleUseOFCognitive-EnhancingDrugsByTheHealthy.pdf

 

But remember, this is merely a summary and position statement, NOT the original science that led the authors to their conclusions. THAT literature is referenced at the end of the commentary.

[sailingpj]

Thanks for posting the link.

 

I am looking to see what people think about drugs like Ritalin being used by healthy people to get ahead in school or work.

 

I think that it will probably become common place in the next decade or so, but I do not think that it is right that people do this. I think of people doing that the same way I think of athletes taking steroids, it just isn't right.

[packsaddle]

First, I don't agree that a medical diagnosis of a need for use of Ritalin or similar drugs indicates poor health. In fact poor health often must be ruled out first, in order to make a correct diagnosis for the use of those drugs.

 

That said, I can't find problems with the reasoning of the authors. So I tend to think it would be ok to let the marketplace operate in this case rather than stifle it with government regulation. If the result is sharper minds, focused attention, and clearer thinking, what's the objection?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eagle92]

Sailing,

Ritalin already has a street value, at least in my neck of the woods. So it isn't in the next decade, but in the present. As I mentioned in another thread, I am on it, and did express my concerns about the med to my MD. I had a nice discussion on the topic with the MD and it was mentioned that yes it can be addictive and yes it there is a black market for it. One reason why FDA, or maybe DEA, requires MDs to constantly monitor it and the patient as well as limit prescribing the med to one month's dosage.

[JerseyScout]

Brain enhancing? Taking ritalin or adderol doesn't make you smarter, it keeps you awake. Its the same as truckers using "West Coast turnaround" to put in ridiculously long days on the road. There is a word for this- speed - and it has nothing to do with enhancing your brain.

 

I was on adderol for three years after being diagnosed with ADD. It absolutely allowed me to focus, in ways that, according to science, my brain was chemically unable to do on its own. For the first time in my life I was able to sit down and actually focus on a task, something it had been almost impossible before. Because I now was able to react like a "normal" person, I was able to teach myself habits to help me cope with an inability to focus, most noticably academically where I went from nearly failing out of high school to a straight As student. This is an important point: these medications will calm down and focus a person with ADD or ADHD.

 

After two years I refused to take it anymore. I was ridiculously thin and I hated not being able to "turn it off". I didn't tell the doctor for a while, I simply stopped getting the prescription filled. In restropect, I could have probably gotten my prescription adjusted to deal with these side effects. I would have gone off it within another two or three years anyway, as my doctor had told me from the beginning that I should only use this to train myself, and that he wanted me off it in a few years.

 

So if you want to make these legal, just legalize speed. To a "normal" brain, its the same thing. Just realize that there are side effects, that it can become a crutch, and that if you (as a "normal" person) really need to stay awake to finish that college or work paper, that you can still do it the old fashioned way with a couple of cups of coffee.(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

[sailingpj]

Pack, I should have worded that better, but the effect is the same. What do you think about people who do not need them taking drugs like Ritalin or Adderol to get ahead in school or work. I am thinking more along the moral and ethical lines here than the legal ones.

 

Eagle92, that is what I am talking about. I know that that kind of thing is happening, and I think that in this next decade (2010-2020) it is only going to become more prolific.

 

JerseyScout, I have never taken those drugs so I do not have firsthand information on what it is like to take them. All I know is what people have told me, and what I have read online. What I have heard is that these drugs help people focus and stay alert. I am not looking to legalize anything. I get along just fine with coffee. What I want to know is do you all think that it is cheating for people to take these drugs to do better on a test such as the SAT, or something like that.

[Lisabob]

I'm ambivalent. Yes, I know tests are very important and all that stuff (heck, I give the tests and of course my tests in my class *are* the most important thing going on at any moment, in any of my students' lives - and I bet Pack will say the same )

 

But really? So you take ritalin or whatever just before the SAT. First, what are your chances of being so wired you literally can't sit still (I hear it impacts some folks that way) and thus you get a horrible score. Second, suppose it really does cause you to be hyper-focused. It still isn't going to improve your math ability, your writing ability, your vocabulary skills, etc. And honestly, one test, one day of your life, isn't going to drastically alter your future. You might score a couple of points higher than "normal." But for the overwhelming majority of college-bound students, that's not going to make or break your admission. Frankly, most schools aren't competitive enough for it to matter. For those few schools that are, well, you'd better have a good deal more than just a pretty SAT score going for you if you hope to get in.

 

So then you get in to "dream school" based on that amazing SAT score (among other things). You arrive, and discover that guess what, either EVERYONE has a similarly amazing SAT score, or (more likely), NO ONE CARES what your amazing SAT score was. In the former, OMG, now what? Do you have to take ritalin on a daily basis now? What if you can't actually perform at the level of everybody else, even when you're on the stuff (after all, some or all of them actually truly earned those high SAT scores because they know their stuff)? What if people begin to wonder how a dumbo like you made it in? AHCK! Self-doubt! Bad news, but you deserve it, for being a hyper-competitive twit with no sense of proportion.

 

In the latter case, which is far more common when we consider most colleges, well all I can say is, wow. You drugged yourself to get a marginally better score, which you'll never really know if you actually earned, and all for what? Nothing. Feeling that empty space where personal self-worth should be located? That's right, you deserve it too - for being a hyper-competitive twit when it doesn't even matter, with no sense of proportion.

 

So yeah, I'm ambivalent. People will misuse it and do stupid stuff. I hope they are twisted with gnawing anxiety about whether they're actually any good as human beings, if they do that.

 

On the other hand, it is kinda sad that our culture encourages this sort of over-the-top behavior, at all. And please note, I'm referring only to people who do not have a legitimate need for these medications. I recognize the beneficial role that these meds can have, for many people who really do have ADD or ADHD.

[Oak Tree]

If the result is sharper minds, focused attention, and clearer thinking, what's the objection?

 

I'm with Packsaddle. If drugs help you perform better, without side effects, then perhaps by definition they should be drugs that you could be prescribed since without them you work at less than your optimum. People have used caffeine for this purpose forever.

 

The only real objection is whether there are side effects. That's the main reason we don't allow steroids in sports. Although, I've got to say, it would be cool to see an Olympics where you could use all the steroids you wanted to. I'm sure we'd see some real freakish performances.

 

The original question asked was What thoughts do you all have on people who use these drugs to do better in school or at work?

 

Isn't that why all users, including the ADHD, use these drugs?

[sailingpj]

Oak Tree, it is my bad for not being clear in my original post. Read my third post for a much better worded form of that question.

 

I think the objection is the possibility that some of us do not want to be taking a stimulant stronger than coffee on a regular basis. There is the distinct possibility that employers may start promoting the people who are taking the drugs over those of us who aren't.(This message has been edited by sailingpj)

[Eagle92]

Side affectscan be severe, very severe. I know when I took my first dose, the lowest available (had to go to 3 different pharmacies to get the right dose as the first two didn't carry it that low) I had chest pains and numbing sensation down my left arm. Was in the ED, had the EKG, etc and everything went back to normal. They couldn't find anything wrong. Didn't take it again for a few days, then on the advice of teh prescribing physician, took it again, and gradually upped the dose per MD's written orders ( took 3 weeks to up the dose to 20MG instead of the MD's 1 week, wanted to make sure I was use to the 10mg before doubling it). No problems since, but that first day was scary!

[Lisabob]

Sailing, the idea that people who use stimulants will be promoted over those who do not, doesn't worry me much. Again, for people who do not have an underlying condition, the stimulant is not going to suddenly allow them to be a different person (failing to straight A) in any long term sense. And it sure isn't going to make them more knowledgeable about their jobs, either.

 

At the end of the day, focus is a wonderful thing. But so are skill, competence, attitude, and a bunch of other things that ritalin does not provide.

 

Besides, I bet these drugs would show up in a urine test. More and more employers are requiring such tests. Then what? Prescription drug abuse is illegal. And employers shouldn't, but many do, have a bias against people who self-identify as being ADHD. Maybe we should be more concerned about negative (social/legal) side effects for those who test positive for these substances, regardless of whether they have a legitimate, prescribed, need for the drug?

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Teh other problem is that while initially the drug works wonders and you are super focused, you do plateu,

[Trevorum]

I have to admit that every day I use this drug - an alkaloid, actually - that changes my body chemistry. I find it sharpens my mind, helps me focus and gives me the edge I need. In fact, I'm having a cup right now.

[packsaddle]

I think the point is that among all the opinions given so far, I see a wonderful desire to make individual decisions based on personal needs and personal reactions. This kind of thoughtful decision, made carefully by individuals with the help, perhaps, of a physician, is what I think is being advocated in the article....intelligent decisions unfettered by thoughtless government control.

Lisa, I wish you could experience my students. Sometimes I think I have the equivalent of Stepford children in comparison to what I read about elsewhere.