A critique of the psych professions

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, things were a bit quiet here, and rather than start YAMET*, I thought I'd bkring up a different topic. I'm an old fellow, eh? I never remember da sheer number of lads that we see these days in counseling or on a full out drug cocktail. Often times it seems they're gettin' da full psych workup for stuff I consider just being an ordinary boy. Sometimes just because their parents don't like their grades and want an excuse or "special accommodations."

 

Da thing is, despite all the counseling and drugging, I can't say as I've ever really seen improvement. The counseling and drugging just keeps goin' and goin', or da person just gets better at the same rate I'd expect from the healing effects of time. In fact, oft as not da counseling stuff seems to get in da way of ordinary healing over time by picking at things. Counselors in particular seem to be at an awful disadvantage, eh? I can't see how a session in an office gets yeh any information on or influence over da environment that a lad is in the other 6 days 23 hours of the week. I've seen lots of lads "play" counselors, and quite a few counselors that seem to "play" kids in that they get satisfaction over being "involved" but don't really seem to care or think about outcomes.

 

I cant say as I'd agree that da average counselor can do any better than random chance in a double-blind experiment where yeh looked at outcomes, and from what I've seen of da school psychologist types I reckon their statistics might be worse than random .

 

Now maybe one of da fellows who does this work can convince me that there's merit in da actual practice. I'm open to that. Or maybe others will jump in who think it's worse, and these folks don't pass da "first do no harm" test. But I reckon I'd learn something, and so would some others.

 

So how 'bout it? Is there really any merit to da modern practice of da psych professions for kids?

 

Beavah

 

*Yet Another Merlyn-Ed Thread(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Scoutfish]

Yet Another Merlyn-Ed Thread

 

LOL! I like that!

 

I wonder too sometimes. Had a friend whose daughter was doing badly at school. The mom called a tutoring/ counseling service. They did an evaluation and recomended gouing to a particular Dr so that the kid could be drugged AND benefit more from the tutoring service.

 

 

Turns out that once dad took away the tv, video games and made the daughter study....she started making honor roll.

 

Back when I was young, I failed 4th grade. And in those days, you only failed once. The next year, they passed you automatically. So the first time in 4th grade, I just drew pictures and never did homework. I could pass test with blazing colors, just didn't do the classwork or homework.

 

The next year, I drew pictures again becauuse I knew I was going to be passed anyways.

 

Needless to say, mom and da were not happy.

 

Well, come 5th grade, I was about to settle into my old habits again, but was interuppted by a xconcerned teacher who had me evaluated.

 

Now, you have to remember, ADDH and ADD were not common or popular words for the average person. Matter of fact, as far as I was concerned, they didn't exist. You were either normal, "special" or lazy.

 

Testing revealed that I had problems applying my knowledge and that maybe with $ome after $chool $ervice$, I could be brought back to the average level of applying my knowledge.

 

MY dad became an instant Dr. He grounded me and did not let me play or watch tv until homework was done. Mom made sure my teaxcher sent home a list of all my assignments on a weekly basis.

 

Would you believe that during that time, I was somehow cured of what might have been labeled ADD or ADDH?

 

Would you believe that by the middle of my 5th grade year, I started making B and C honor roll. By 6th grade, I was on the A and A/B honor roll all the time.

 

From 7th tghrough 10 grade, I was on the Academic Derby team and active "Quiz Bowl" member.

 

I had more college credits through firefighting school that I had high school creditd by the time I quit mid year in 11trh grade and challenged and passed the high school graduate exam.

 

Now, in hindsight, I wish I had stayed in school until regular graduatuion, but at the time, I was feeling mighty full of myself.

 

 

My point being, I think too many people jump on the ADD and ADDH bandwagon and start passing out drugs to everybody.

 

I notice that this trend is keeping pace with the "I am not responcible and I ought to sue somebody" trend!

 

But do not take this to mean I don't believe ADD and ADDH are not real. I know they are.

 

I just think some people want to take the easy way out.

 

Shoot...that was my personal mission back in the 4th grade!

[evmori]

Interesting topic.

 

While I believe there are kids with medical conditions. But I also feel a lot of behavior is excused because of these conditions.

[DeanRx]

*** Disclaimer - if they quit drugging the kids, I'll loose a significant amount of my income !! ***

 

That being said, we are on the way to raising the 1st and 2nd generations of kids that have been raised through their formative years with a good portion of them addicted to legal speed. Ritalin and all its "me too" drugs are basically speed.

 

Now, there are and I have seen several children that truely have a problem with attention. does this mean they need meds? Maybe, maybe not. While the increase in prescription drug use has climbed, the amount of "free time" kids have has shrunk. Recess and Gym class have been severely decreased or in some systems cut altogether due to either budget woes or the need to "leave no child behind".

 

I have kids in our pack that have been diagnosed as Autistic, ADD, ADHD or some other combo of mental illness. two of them went camping last spring. One, I would not want to see if he was not on meds, he truely needs it or he would have a 2 second attention span - how he functions in a classroom, I'll never guess. The other boy was out running, having fun, so much so that mom and dad forgot to give him his ADHD meds for 48 hours. he was well behaved and according to mom, "slept better than he has in almost two years."

 

My sideline opinion - that kid was over medicated and probably just needed to have time to run his energy out everyday. But, with 2 parents working, soccer, band, music, scouts, whatever else, plus homework durring the week, this kid never got outside to play (other than organized sports - a whole other topic). In talking with mom and dad, he rarely if ever had unstructured free play or time when he could explore / daydream / or make up his own game to play. When given the opportunity to do so, he was a well behaved, well adjusted kid.

 

I think society in general is too fast to 'label' someone with a syndrome or symptom. It is part of the 'never fail, must be the best' mentality many buy into. If you for some reason fail or fall short of being the "best", then there must be a "reason" for it - i.e. diagnois

the kid so they and the parents can feel better about the situation.

 

In general (at least in the USA) "Do your Best" has been turned into, "You must BE the BEST". You see this manifest itself at the Pinewood derby, at little league fields, in the classroom, and on the playground all the time. It is ingrained in our society. So, often the solution to someone not being the best is to find a reason (other than they are just not the best). That reason is usually a diagnosis and in our western society - nearly every diagnosis is treated with some form of drug.

 

No parent goes to the head shrinker wanting to hear that their little Johnny is just not as smart, or isn't as strong etc... if they are spending their hard earned $ (or at least hard earned copay) on an office visit, they EXPECT a REASON (i.e. diagnosis) for WHY their child is the way they are.

 

Its not that the psych professions are quacks or frauds - they are just giving the people what they want in exchange for the their money. Why do you think the top 3 drugs prescribed by volume and $ sold in the US are psych meds?

 

Depending on the study and which one you believe - some 75% to 80% of the US adult population are walking around sucking down an antidepressant or anxiolytic on a daily basis. If the adults can't deal with life and need to be medicated to function normally, WHY wouldn't they expect the same of their offspring?

 

Diet and exercise can go a LONG way to treating many of these conditions, depression, anxiety, ADHD in both kids and adults. BUT - no one wants to hear it. Big Pharma doesn't want you to hear it. There is no money in it. You'll never see a PSA on TV that tells you to turn OFF the video feed and go outside and play - that is counter to their bottom line! Few, if any, patients are willing to make the lifestyle and income (i.e. work less / play more) modifications needed to make diet and exercise a viable treatment option, so what is left?

 

Pop a pill to get through the day.

[sherminator505]

"No parent goes to the head shrinker wanting to hear that their little Johnny is just not as smart, or isn't as strong etc... if they are spending their hard earned $ (or at least hard earned copay) on an office visit, they EXPECT a REASON (i.e. diagnosis) for WHY their child is the way they are."

 

I pay thousands on my health plan each year, and my employer kicks in thousands more. I realize that I've paid much more than the copay, and I'm surprised more health plan members don't realize that they do as well. Probably a good spinoff thread...(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[ntrog8r]

"So how 'bout it? Is there really any merit to da modern practice of da psych professions for kids?"

 

Yes.

 

 

Ok so we probably want more of an answer than that. First off I agree with the basic issue that many kids are over diagnosed and over medicated. Of course the evidence that we didn't have all this happening when we were kids is hardly scientific. After all people used to die of cancer, heart disease, etc and were simply undiagnosed. As medical science advances, so do diagnoses and treatments.

 

A 17yo young man told me he was thinking of harming himself. Three trips to a counselor was enough and he was "cured". No more issues of self harm, still feeling the emotional pain of course, but able to deal with it. That was more than a year ago now and he is a college student now. Another Scout, 13yo at the time, acting out violently to his parents, teachers, etc. Parents refuse to put him on recommended meds because they believe its just "made up - he's just being a boy". After one incident too many and nearly losing custody of their son, they put him on the meds - complete turnaround. Successful in school, polite, normal kid (without the glazed look I've seen on others taking meds). One more, started back in Cubs as kid diagnosed with ADD. Seemed slow, drugged if you will. A lot of issues growing and moving ahead with the other Scouts. Working directly with the Scout we had some major breakthroughs and he really came along and was able to stay with his peers all the way into Scouting. Eventually the parents went to see a different Doc and determined their son was taking too high a dose of meds. Dose was changed, brighter, more active, more interested son. I would say in all these cases the "psych professions for kids" worked.

 

Now I could also provide examples of things that did not work - bad counselors, weird (IMO) instructions to parents from doctors. The Scout who was dosed up and didn't need anything except the opportunity to live. But these are examples of bad PEOPLE in the profession. Just like every profession, there are some who should really look for the chance to excel at something else.

 

[Eagle92]

Disclaimer: I am one of those diagnosed with adult ADD. I was recently diagnosed, but in reviewing the literature on ADD before going to the doctor, I realized I have had the condition for a very long time. Now I have my theories on why I was able to control it before, but those are theories not facts. Since I am on 'legal speed" my theories include the following:

 

1)have lowered my caffiene in take drastically (I was drinking about 6-8 cups a day of coffee AND having caffienated soft drinks)

 

2) the nature of my current jon is that i am now in a constant flux of activities that I need to juggle instead of focusing on one thing at a time. Which is probably the biggest factor.

 

Now a theory on the increase of ADHD cases that is being studied is the increase use of computer usage, especially the internet. Research is being done on the topic,a nd preliminary results do show a correlation between computer, esp. internet, usage and ADHD. So I am really up a creek since most of my work is done on a computer surfing the net for info.

 

I am now on meds, and yes they help me tremendously. My coworkers and wife have both noticed a very big difference in my work performance, and I have too. Do I wish to go off them some day, absolutely. But at this time I will continue to take them.

 

As an aside to DeanRx, know how to put a bug in someone's ear about doign a trial on the use of caffeine as a possible replacement for ritallin? I seriously think dropping from 7-8 cups of coffee a day plus 2 or 3 drinks a day to 2 cups and 1 drink a day had a factor to play.

[Eagledad]

I been working with psychologist for 15 years, so I have learned a lot about them and their field. They are also a great resource for discussions that come up in this forum. But because of that, I will come right up front and admit that I have very little respect for psychologist and their vocation. I have come to have even less respect for the opinions of psychologist on this forum. I just know too much about them and the APA.

 

That being said, I went and asked them about the subject of this discussion. One psychologist I talked with said he firmly believes their field and the psychiatric field have done more harm than good to our generation of youth. However, its not just them, we have developed into a culture of quick fixes (his words). The conclusion is that parents are more self focused and dont give their family the time together needed for kids to grow up expressing themselves both physically and mentally. He says the large number of ADD diagnoses is in part a result of a culture of moms working. Before that time, mothers spent a large part of their time staying busy with their kids.

 

If you ever watched very many episodes of the program Dog Whisperer, you find that 90% of the time the host of the show, Caesar, says the owner isnt walking or giving the dog enough attention and as a result, the dog gets restless and gets in to trouble. Its basically the same with humans. Our kids are energetic and their minds need stimulus. But todays parents are either too busy or too tired to give their kids the time needed to give them that stimulus. So we hand them over to the TV and video games to baby sit for us. But its not just a parent thing, its cultural. My son is also diagnosed ADD, BY HIS TEACHER. In fact the majority of kids who go for testing were first asked by the teacher to get them tested. Parents dont know better, so they have the kids tested and then find themselves being swayed by the experts. My coworker says that we should teach parents that a teacher asking for an ADD test is really a call to the parents to change something in their family habits.

 

Its a cycle that is next to impossible to change. Parents are busy and kids are energetic, which result in a collision at a cultural level leading to a generation of drug up kids.

 

One last thing, my psychologist coworker was telling me that while there is a lot of talk about the social side effects of druging kids, there is just as many problems with the physical side effects. For example, our bodies generally resist puberty while on some of these drugs. He said a lot of adults in their 20s are seeking physiological therapy because they are five and six years behind their friends in sexual maturity. It causes all kinds of relationship problems for the rest of their life.

 

He also said many drugs cause physical problems that force kids into strange habits or what he called tics. Some drugs create symptoms of dry mouth, or something like that, and kids develop tics of swallowing or clearing their throat as a result.

 

I asked him what he felt was a solution to the problem. He said that drugging kids now is so ingrained in our society that he couldnt think of a solution. He said even if kids get off drugs, our video game and TV culture would likely just fill in and cause new side effects. He said it is very unlikely that we will get back to a culture of being the kind of parents that kids need. I was surprised and saddened by his lack of hope. He does see Boy Scouts as a very positive activity for boys.

 

Barry

 

[Lisabob]

"Depending on the study and which one you believe - some 75% to 80% of the US adult population are walking around sucking down an antidepressant or anxiolytic on a daily basis. If the adults can't deal with life and need to be medicated to function normally, WHY wouldn't they expect the same of their offspring? "

 

Yikes. If true, this is a serious indictment of our culture. Not the psychs' faults, there. They didn't create an unlivable culture. We (collectively) do that to ourselves. And we continue doing it every time we decide that we "have to" do or have something or adopt certain behavioral patterns because "everybody else" does. In actuality, it is possible to opt out of a lot of the craziness, though that, too, can come at some cost.

 

As for teachers and ADD diagnoses, on one hand, teachers have access to a much broader spectrum of developmental experiences for comparison purposes, than a lot of parents do. And in a society where even nuclear families (let alone extended family networks) are so fragmented, it kind of makes sense that a frazzled parent will accept a teacher's word about what's "typical" or "normal."

 

On the other hand, I really and truly wish that someone would ban teachers from telling parents that their kid has ADHD. Maybe the teacher is right, and maybe medication is actually in order. But often, the problem isn't that the kid has ADHD, but rather, that the kid is not developmentally ready for the classroom environment, or there are problems within the family, or the kid is not well suited to that teacher's or that system's style/pace/etc. Drugs do not fix these problems - they merely paper over the problems. That might be necessary sometimes, but it should be recognized for what it is - a "solution" that doesn't adequately "solve" the underlying problem.

 

 

But when it comes to offering a "critique of the psych profession," I hardly think most of us can offer any sort of valid critique. Most of us don't fully understand what it is we're being invited to critique, and so any analysis will necessarily be seriously flawed. Interesting water cooler topic though, I suppose.

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

75% to 80%?!?!? No way. That number seemed so wrong I had to go check it out.

 

"A new study has found that antidepressant drug use in the United States has gone up 75 percent, from 5.84 percent of the population to 10.12 percent." (http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/08/03/antidepressant-use-up-75-percent/7514.html)

 

Here's evidence that some of this is typical immaturity being diagnosed as a disease:

"Youngest kids in kindergarten more likely be diagnosed with ADHD. Are we confusing immaturity with hyperactivity?"

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/08/20/youngest-kids-in-kindergarten-more-likely-be-diagnosed-with-adhd-are-we-confusing-immaturity-with-hyperactivity/

 

I've definitely seen medications make a big difference in some people's lives. And not so much in others.

[packsaddle]

I'm sort of with Lisa on this. I think there are actual neuro-physiological mechanisms that we do understand that are associated with some of the things being mentioned. I am not sure that the field of psychology can be assessed on the basis of those topics alone and even if it could, I'm very certain that few in these forums, including me, are competent to offer much more than an insubstantial opinion.

I too have seen some very good success cases and those alone are sufficient to convince me that it is possible to alter brain chemistry in a way that is beneficial to the patient. The fact that there are some excesses or failures does little more than show the need for greater understanding, and yes, perhaps greater competence for some practitioners.

 

The idea that anyone would characterize the opinion of a teacher as a "diagnosis" is incredible. Yes, a teacher can point the parent to counterproductive behavior or other problems. The parent, then, is free to seek the best medical attention, if needed, that they can afford. If the parent merely relies on whatever the school district is required to provide by law, then the parent has decided to place the fate of their child in the hands of the school district and not to take further personal responsibility. That is their choice and if it is out of ignorance, thrift, stupidity, or poverty, it is still their choice. They should expect to get the high quality care, opinions, and diagnoses that are commensurate with what they paid for it. But thinking that a teacher or guidance counselor can diagnose something this complex is delusional.

[Eagledad]

>>But thinking that a teacher or guidance counselor can diagnose something this complex is delusional.

 

[Horizon]

My wife holds a PhD in Psychology, trained in clinical work but works as a research professor. When it comes to therapy (which is what psychologists do), she says that you have to find the right therapist that works for YOU. There are different types of therapy, and different people respond in different ways. Yes, in a perfect world someone with problems would find the right parent, the right friend, the right religious figure, etc. to talk through their issues and find resolution. However, sometimes are problems ARE our friends, our family, or even our religion. In those cases, having someone "neutral" to speak with can make a huge difference in someone's life.

 

Psychiatry, on the other hand, is more focused on the meds. Anyone with issues should START with a psychologist (or other types of therapists depending on the need), and if counseling is not the answer perhaps a prescription can make the difference in someone.

 

Are meds overused? Probably. Since we overuse anti-biotics, I see no reason that we do not overuse other medications.

 

Do some people seek therapy to have someone tell them that THEY are not the problem? Yes again.

 

Are there bad actors out there? Absolutely.

 

Can we condemn the ENTIRE profession - no, we should not.

[Horizon]

Barry:

 

A psychologist does not dispense or presecribe drugs. You need an MD to do that, not a PhD or a PsyD.

 

The term diagnosis is typically used to describe the evaluation of a trained professional in the field. I would not call a teacher a trained professional when it comes to diagnosing the need for a psychotropic medication. They can certainly accurately compare behavior of a child to their peers, but they can't write out a prescription.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

No not quacks, but theives and abusers.

Granted,I am only a garage door installer, but when customers don't particularly like what I am telling them after inspecting an old/ dilapidated/ damaged/ recently hit garage door...I say:

 

"I can tell you what you want to hear, or I can tell you the truth. The first one may cause momentary happiness, but then it will be gone.

 

The second one will fix your problem and create long term happiness. You decide right now what you want me to tell you."

 

 

Now, I have mentioned somewhere else in these forms at one time or another ..another thing that may cause children to ack out of whack sometimes in addition to lack of free time and recess ( which I agree with Dean):

 

Soda. Candy. Food preservative. Sugar coated corn syrup sweet puffs cereal. Fast food. Grease.

 

When I was young, our biggest vice was Kool-Aid. I bet I had a blue, or green or red mustache 3 years straight. Biggest worry was the sugar might rot your teeth out or you pooped funny colors!

 

I think there were only 4 kinds of "sugar" cereals back then. Mom buying Frosted Flakes was a very big deal. Felt like Christmas or something!

 

Maybe once a month..if we were good and deserved it...dad would take us to McDonalds or the local A&W/ bait shop for a root beer float.

 

The rest of the time, it was milk, Kool-Aid, or water. Snacks were PB&J sandwhiches and sometimes a handfull of those cheap butter cookies that the stores sold under the store name.

 

The rest of the time,it was homemade home cooked food. Cooked on the stove or oven. Mom spent 3 hours making something we scarfed down in 10 minutes. No instant this or that, nothing in the microwave.

 

No preservatives. Well, at least not like now.

 

Anybody remember the Jiffy-Pop popcorn that you held the aluminum pan over a burner to make popcorn? We did that maybe 4 times a year.

 

Now my wife almost owns stock in Orville Redenbocker. Or ought to.

 

Somewhere along the line..all those chemicals, hormones and preservatives can't be doing anybody any favors.