Is This It? Changes in the Text of the Roman Catholic Mass?

[GernBlansten]

Wow trev,

I never realized that was in latin. How did they find so many performers who knew latin to sing that?

[Eagle92]

not to change the subject, but Klingon reminded me of a friend in college who spoke Klingon and tried to get it accepted as his foreign languange for graduation. Didn't happen. I've also seen the Klingon Interpreter spoof strip, written in both English and Klingon.

 

back on topic, if memory serves one linquist I knew tried to state that Italian is the modern form of Latin as all languages do evolve over the years, see Old English, Middle English, and modern English as examples (ever try and read Beowulf in Old English? )

 

 

[packsaddle]

Gern, It's possible that they didn't 'know' Latin but merely how to correctly pronounce it for that performance. Anyway, most people respond to the rhythm, melody, and tonal emphasis, rather than the words for that piece.

More about the Vatican. I am very uncertain that when the Vatican kitchen (or commissary, food court, whatever it's called) places a grocery order, that it is placed in Latin. I am also uncertain that, when the Pope-mobile (whatever it's called) is broken down in the shop, the Pope's motor pool explains to the Pope's assistants how the water pump went bad causing the serpentine belt to damage the ignition system and radiator when it came apart and, moreover, they noticed that there is a recall on the fuel injectors....in Latin. Unlikely. Or when, back in the 1800's, the Pope asked the Papal Astrophysicist to study the optical properties of the Mediterranean (making, incidentally, the Papal fleet available to test his instruments in the field) I suspect the request was not in Latin. I know for a fact that the scientific report was not. (5 points to anyone who can come up with the English translation of the ship's name)

And, finally, when Father Reginald Foster was informing us that Bible stories are 'just nice stories', he didn't say it in Latin. He said it to us in English. And what was his position in the Vatican? Senior Latin scholar for the Pope.

Nice.

Fact is, there might be a few people on the planet somewhere who confine themselves to Latin. Last night I heard the Pope address the people of Italy. He did it in Italian.

There are far more who speak Swahili or Zapotec than Latin and they speak Swahili and Zapotec as their native language to the others in their society because their languages are still alive and ready to incorporate new concepts that are contemporary and relevant to their societies.

If one wants to make an argument about language and "universal character" for some church, I would argue that that church should be ready to embrace all languages, and not to focus on one that almost no-one speaks or understands.

Or I could be wrong. Still waiting for that explanation.

 

Edited: Eagle92, correct. Languages evolve...if they are alive (just walk around Brooklyn with an open ear). Latin is preserved like a specimen on my shelf. If preserved in alcohol, WC Fields would say that's not such a bad fate. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[packsaddle]

I know OGE is going to take a crack at the trivia question so here's a hint. The Papal astrophysicist lowered his new instrument over the side of the (as yet un-named) ship for the first time on 20 April 1865. Work on that and see if you need another hint.

 

Edited: heh, heh, I bet you were surprised when you Googled that date. Didn't find anything did you?

 

You just need to add one more word to the search. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[VigilEagle04]

"if memory serves one linquist I knew tried to state that Italian is the modern form of Latin as all languages do evolve over the years, see Old English, Middle English, and modern English as examples (ever try and read Beowulf in Old English? )"

 

This is very true, and we also can't just say modern English anymore. US English and UK English are two totally different animals. By the way, I have a copy of Beowulf in Old English, I love it. I am in no way fluent in OE, but I can read it fairly proficiently, picked it up when I was studying languages of the British Isles.

 

I just realized that I really do work in the right place after that statement, lol.

 

"Languages evolve...if they are alive (just walk around Brooklyn with an open ear). Latin is preserved like a specimen on my shelf. If preserved in alcohol, WC Fields would say that's not such a bad fate."

 

That's the thing though, Latin evolved to Italian before it was a dead language. Latin was preserved as such for years because it was one of those classical languages that was imperative for the learned class to know. It was the language of scholars and priests (who at the time were really one in the same). It was widespread due to the influence of the Roman Empire. All these things have lead to Latin being preserved as a dead language, as opposed to Aramaic, Old English, or other dead languages. It even swallowed up the ancient Greek languages.

[OldGreyEagle]

Well now, it took a bit of doing, as April 10, 1965 was the day after the end of the War of Northern Aggression but of course you refer to Father Pietro Angelo Secchi's work aboard the Immaculate Conception

 

BTW

 

speculator es fiducia; fidelis adjutor adfectus accommodatio beneficium,oboedientia, hilarus, parcus

fortitudo purus,sanctus

[OldGreyEagle]

Well now, it took a bit of doing, as April 10, 1965 was the day after the end of the War of Northern Aggression but of course you refer to Father Pietro Angelo Secchi's work aboard the Immaculate Conception

 

BTW

 

speculator es fiducia; fidelis adjutor adfectus accommodatio beneficium,oboedientia, hilarus, parcus

fortitudo purus,sanctus

[packsaddle]

OGE...how to say this...Keep your day job. (the date was 20 April, not 10) Also, admonitions work best when they are understandable. This applies to that awful thing that we think we say in OA as well, LOL. Perform an experiment next time you attend the OA ceremony: when (inevitably) other old OA members ask you to remind them of the admonition, just whisper gobbledygook. I predict they will be allowed entry without question..why..because the person they whisper it to will be just as clueless as they are.

VigilEagle04, I agree. But the point is that Latin IS dead. The claim is that its use is a "potent sign of the Church's universal character". That's the part I would like to have explained. To even claim that any one church has "universal character"...that alone is enough to make me wonder what they're talking about. But to make the further claim that speaking a dead language is a "potent sign" of that universal character...that's going to take some careful explanation before I can understand what the heck they're talking about.

They might as well be speaking in, well, Latin. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

So I made a typo,well, not a typo, I read it wrong, sue me?

 

But I still got the name of the boat, right?

[RANBOW]

OK, so lets go cruise the autobahn after the pope-mobile is repaired and we can all get an ice cream cone. Sound good to anyone? You can have extra sprinkles.

 

Some latin is going to be brought back into a more frequent or common usage in the church instead of, used just on special occasions or by the choir. So what? Those attending mass who are adults and proficient in their faith understand its meaning. Those who are not adults are still learning their faith and will appreciate it for what it is when they do mature.

 

Latin is a dead language but, many educated people still understand and use it. All doctors, pharmacists and clergy use it on a daily basis and are required to know and understand it. Latin doesnt seem to be that dead in here right now for, there is certainly no lack of intelligent and or educated people using this thread and throwing up a few latin statements to boot.

 

I in fact use latin on a daily basis for, many of my passwords are a combination of latin and numbers. Why? I really dont know. I guess because its no more silly and feels safer to me than, a pet or childs name in combination with someone elses birthday or an anniversary. Or, maybe its just because I can.

 

Non of this really makes much difference. Its going to happen and there are those who wont like it, those who dont understand it and those who it wont matter to. I personally like it and enjoy the singing of agnus dei (the lamb of god).

 

Positus. Si agendum est, age cum splendore.

 

----RANBOW----

 

[Beavah]

Some latin is going to be brought back into a more frequent or common usage in the church instead of, used just on special occasions or by the choir. So what?

 

Yah, no skin off my nose. It'll help da other Christian faiths gain more congregants

 

Da thing is, though, Catholics have a big footprint, eh? Yeh get a lot more media attention than the rest of us, and in some ways yeh "represent" Christendom.

 

I just find it sad to see yeh retreating back to bad habits. It weakens the cause of Christianity when yeh dabble in this sort of stuff. Folks can point to you and say "see how it's all just mythical opera? Like da language they used the ideas died out a long time ago." Putting form ahead of substance is a weak form of idolatry, eh? Putting churchliness ahead of Godliness is the same thing.

 

There was a stretch in there where yeh were taking the lead on social teaching. Now, 20 some years after your bishops had the temerity to issue a Christian challenge to unconstrained capital markets they have been vindicated. In that same twenty years your faithful more than any other ripped down the walls of communism brick by brick, prayer by prayer. Your refreshed faith after the Council dared to challenge both the entrenched powers and the revolutionaries across da Latin world.

 

And now, having demonstrated the awesome power and foresight that's possible with a deeply Christian perspective, you are retreating back to navel-gazing and historical re-enactment rather than living Christendom. Yeh could unite us, but you're retreating to emphasizing those things which separate us.

 

From da perspective of one of your separated brethren, it's a cryin' shame. But we'll still pray for yeh.

 

Beavah

[OldGreyEagle]

uh... ummm ummm ....

 

Thanks for the kind words...

 

I think ....

[BklynEagle]

Eagle92...

 

Did the strip actually say "tlhIngan" in "pIqaD" (that is, did it say "Klingon" in the "Klingon writing system") or was it merely Terren phonetics?

 

Qapla'

 

BklynEagle

[packsaddle]

OGE, yes you got the name. A few years ago it was nearly impossible to find, even on the web. Guess I need to work on some harder trivia questions.

[Beavah]

Yah, I remember this Klingon translator story. Of course it turned out to be just a bit overhyped. Still, it was a fun notion:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86550,00.html

 

Perhaps Klingon is more useful than Latin, eh? Even mental health patients don't choose to speak only Latin.

 

Beavah