Is This It? Changes in the Text of the Roman Catholic Mass?

[OldGreyEagle]

See, this is the troule with instituting Policy, then you have to live with it. A few months back I decreed no eponymous threads. So, I can't very well start one of my own. But awhile back a frequent poster said that Pope Benedict was well on his way to reversing the changes in the Roman Catholic Church brought about by Vatican II and as part of those changes the Mass would stop being said in the Vulgate and would return to the Latin. This change was to take place in 2010. Well, I have from time to time said I was looking for any indication this was so. And I have found this:

 

http://usccb.org/romanmissal/

 

in the introduction it says:

 

The Roman Missal, Third Edition, the ritual text containing prayers and instructions for the celebration of the Mass, has been approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. First use of the new text of the new Roman Missal will be on the First Sunday of Advent, November 27, 2011.

 

And I wonder if this could be what was talked about. It is not a change back to the Latin Mass, but it is changes to the text of the Roman Missal, the words in English that the Priest will say during the Mass translated from the Latin.

 

Is this the change that was foretold that would be coming and there was confusion over Latin versus Roman and what it meant?

 

 

[perdidochas]

Everything I'd ever read about the subject of the changes in text of the Roman Catholic Mass was that it was going to be minor and in the Vulgate. Basically, it was a more precise translation of the Latin Mass.

[NJCubScouter]

OGE, I remember news coverage from a few years ago about an announcement by the Pope that supposedly expanded the instances when Latin could be used in Catholic services. (And if I do not seem to have the terminology quite correct here, it may be because I am not Catholic.) There was briefly some controversy over it until the media was diverted by the next shiny object, I mean the next Big Story. I think that what I am talking about is what is discussed in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum (I know, I know, it's Wikipedia, but it seems to be written by people who know what they're talking about. It's certainly way over MY head. Hopefully you and some of your co-religionists can make better sense of it than I can.)

 

(Edited to fix link, hopefully.)(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[BadenP]

OGE

 

For your edification after consulting with his circle of advisors Benedict has decided to introduce these changes in phases, much like Vatican II changes were, rather than all at once as he really preferred. Certain prayers and responses at Mass will be said in Latin instead of English to begin with, then changes in how communion will be done,then changes in the norms of mass ritual, in the last phase of Benedicts plan he has written that the altar will be turned around as in the past and the tabernacle will be permanently housed on top of it. Many of these changes have already taken place in the more conservative churches of the east coast, midwest, and other areas of the world. Change comes slowly but change is indeed coming as most of my priest friends have told me.

[Eagle92]

Either I will have to review my Latin, or go Anglican Rite

 

edited: just read part of the new liturgy, WOW.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[DeaconLance]

NJCubScouter,

 

It is already possible to say the entire Mass in Latin and always was. Latin was never suppressed, it simply became displaced by the newly approved vernacular after Vatican II.

 

The 62 Missal was suppressed until limted use of it was allowed in the 80s, but priests had to have the permission of their bishop to use it which the majority of bishops would not grant. Summorum Pontificum freed the 62 Missal and priests no longer need their bishops permission to use it.

[DeaconLance]

BadenP,

 

Change is indeed coming, all at once in Nov 11. The textual change could be likened to going from the Good News Bible to the RSV Bible. There are not many rubrical cahnges other than what always was to have been will be demanded and deviations will theoretically not be tolerated. There is certainly a move to use more Latin especially for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei and for the priest to take Institution Narrative in it. Venacular will retain its primacy. I suspect your priest friends are among those opposed to the changes and are spreading gloom and doom about the new Missal in effort to rile up the laity against it before they ever have a chance to experience it.

[RANBOW]

Although there are always going to be those who will take their own view on things. As a practicing catholic that attends several different parishes from time to time and several local ones frequently. It is my opinion that these changes should not be viewed in a negative light. I must also concur with the deacon on his previous posts.

 

It is my understanding that these changes are meant to reflect a greater meaning for, and improve the understanding of, the purpose of the many traditions and particular prayers and responses used by the church in the mass. The end of this means is to provide the parishioners with a stronger faith and a better understanding of the practices / traditions.

 

As a cradle catholic it hasnt been hard to see some changes that have already been implemented in the past couple of years (particularly by those that we refer to as baltimore priests ---Def = A priest that more closely follows the traditions of a baltimore catechist or pre vatican 2... IE. a more strict priest.--- Hope that was clear to the non catholics) . Although there are slight differences from parish to parish as to the way things are conducted as well as from priest to priest. it has been easy to see a definite increase in the emphasis on certain prayers (especially pre mass) and the use of latin songs or latin responses during the mass. Also as a cradle catholic that is old enough to have been influenced by the older, baltimore catechist generation. these changes dont have as much of an impact on me like they may a person that is still young or didnt grow up as a catholic. These are the ones who will notice the changes more and have stronger opinions about them for, everyone knows people as a whole dont like change.

 

To be clear. When I refer to differences from parish to parish or priest to priest. I am talking about the way they go about things. Even though the same mass is going to be said at every parish throughout the world on that day and the masses are planned out three years in advance. the priest has the right to choose between different songs and some choose to sing certain things while others prefer them to be spoken. (This could get confusing to those who only attend at one parish and rarely see a different priest fill in or doesnt attend different parishes. not to mention those who attend part time. lol. Im sure deacon knows what I mean.)

 

In final. It is my belief that these changes are meant to strengthen the church and the faith of the parishioners along with it. An increase in the understanding and meaning of the traditions and practices we use is also expected. In my opinion.

 

With all the discussions in this forum about ... this troop/pack does this and this troop/pack does that, does this charter org. have more influence than others, troops from this charter org. does this, (omg some go home on sat night instead of sun morn. whats the big deal). I can see how this would make for somewhat of a good comparison. However. As a catholic. If it is decreed by the Holy See(THE POPE). I must and will abide. just as, as a Scout if the BSA decrees. We must also comply. In the end it is the ones that control the masses that are trying to improve the program, whether all agree that it is for the good or not. This is always going to be mere opinion and now I have given mine. I hope all will except it as just that and as scouts continue to remember to respect and be tolerant of others and their beliefs.

 

See you on the trail... RANBOW

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

So I was goin' to stay out of this, but it's just too rich, eh? And besides, OGE hasn't sentenced me to one of da layers of hell or stories of purgatory or whatnot in a while:).

 

So perhaps one of yeh can explain how chanting in a dead language that nearly none of your faithful understands is somehow conducive to faith in the Lord? I'm a fairly ecumenical and understanding fellow, but that just strikes me as complete balderdash.

 

Yah, yah, sure, it's occasionally nice to give a nod to history, and there are always a few aficionados. There are people who pay lots of money to watch Italian operas, too. I get that. But don't yeh want your faith to appeal to a broader audience than aficionados of Gregorian chant in a dead language? And why Latin, when Jesus spoke Aramaic, and da original scriptures were in Hebrew and Greek? If you're goin' for historical authenticity, it seems like those would be better choices.

 

From da view of an outsider, this doesn't strike me as being about faith in God. The Christ reaches out to sinful man; Jesus always spoke the vernacular. This seems to be about faith in men, eh? Particularly faith in a few old aficionados of Latin opera.

 

So how does a scout become deeper in his faith by mouthing "Agnus Dei qui tolis pecata mundi..." when the Bible he reads at home, and hears read at services, talks about the Lamb of God? Seems like da Master's admonishment about putting hurdles in the way of people applies. I even get your incense habit more than I get this dead language silliness.

 

I do, however, wonder if some enterprising young person will leap up at services and shout "Expelliaramus!" at da fellow with the shepherd's crook. Now that would be a fun use of Latin.

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92]

Beav,

Latin non es mortalis, es immortalis! And yes words have been added to the Latin dictionary in the past 20 years.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

So perhaps one of yeh can explain how chanting in a dead language that nearly none of your faithful understands is somehow conducive to faith in the Lord? I'm a fairly ecumenical and understanding fellow, but that just strikes me as complete balderdash.

 

Isn't there something in the Scout Handbook, under the 12th point of the Scout Law, about respecting the religious beliefs of others? Beavah's comment above does not strike me as particularly respectful of the religious beliefs of others.

[RANBOW]

Beavah. You made me spit out my tea with the "Expelliaramus!" quote. Shame on you. Just so you are not confused, It is more about the changing of some of the vernacular and sticking to tradition than it is about the adding of latin. A good bit of the latin is already in use from time to time. it will just be used a little more on a regular basis. It isnt about the latin per say either its more of the meaning of the latin and its tradition. As a foot note. If you were a catholic child would the latin not cause you to be inquisitive as to its meaning. Thus drawing you to learn more about your faith and broaden your intellect? Just a thought.... I know as a child the latin impressed me and I inquired as to its meanings when old enough and followed up later in school by taking a couple years of it.

 

P.S. after Vat 2. many complained that too much tradition had been removed as a result. Now keep in mind I dont claim to be educated in the faith or other wise. Im just a practiccing cradle catholic, bound to abide by the rules, stating my opinion. Hope it is helpful.

 

See you on the trail, ----RANBOW----

 

[Eagle92]

Like Ran, I too was surprised when I saw the addition of some words,phrases, and sentences in the vernacular from what is already being said.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[BklynEagle]

Nice to see that not everybody here hates Catholics.

 

The proposed revisions, as has been stated here, are chiefly a more precise translation of the Latin text into the vernacular. Now, I will be the first to admit that some of the phrases, when translated into English, do become something of a mouthful. That being said, some of the imagery that is suggested by the stricter translation is actually quite pretty; for instance, there is a line that refers to God's spirit descending like the morning dew. Admittedly, does that sound, at first blush, moderately odd? Perhaps. But, if you take a minute, the image suggested is rather thought-provoking; I mean, we're all Scouters here, right? Who here hasn't seen the morning dew while on a camping trip and found the sight to be inspiring?

 

I do know that several organists are looking forward to some of the new melodic settings that the revisions are bringing about.

 

Et cum Spiritu tuo,

 

BklynEagle

[RANBOW]

Dont you just love scouting and the scouter forums? where else could you find a group of people that can use words like... vulgate, vernacular, rubrical, and laity. Let alone spout a little latin if required. Its actually refreshing to have a discussion with someone and not be driven insane by those who say things like supos-uh-blee instead of supposedly.

 

See you on the trail, ----RANBOW----