Martinez and the Magicians Horse

[skeptic]

How come I am not having any luck blocking people? I followed the instructions, but they are still showing up.

[evmori]

And I don't go along with the idea that atheists are excluding themselves; the BSA is excluding them. I've read rationalizations where people insist the BSA doesn't exclude atheists, atheists exclude themselves; that's just blaming the victim.

 

How would you know Merlyn? You have stated you have no interest in joining the BSA. And when asked why an atheist would want to join the BSA, you claim ignorance even though you claim to be defending the rights of atheists! If you were actually defending the rights of atheists and not just your own, you would know why atheists would want to join the BSA. It's all about you!

[studentscout]

I will answer Evmori's question but it only applies to me. As an atheist scout, I was attracted to the program because of the outdoor activities, the spirit of camaraderie among my friends, and as a team we could do things like high adventure that would have been tough to do alone. As an atheist leader today, I still enjoy these things but because I'm much younger than most other leaders, it seems that the boys think I'm 'cooler' than most. I'm good with that too.

I sort of sympathize with Merlyn's viewpoint, and I understand what he means in his replies when someone asks him something that is nonsensical or contains internal contradictions. He can't possibly speak for others in matters where he is asked about why others do or want things. The question itself is just....incomprehensible...if you 'think' about it.

As for the matter of that DRP nonsense, I am an atheist and a Buddhist. I consider all gods to be myths, some of them are still popular in major religions. To me, myths are not in themselves bad...only what some people do...using their myths as part of their rationale. I try to follow the Buddhist philosophy and most of the reasoning for the faith but there is still much to learn. I signed the BSA application in good 'faith' because I do have a sense of reverence. Aside from my reverence for things natural, my greatest reverence is for the power of reasoning. It is available to anyone regardless of who or where they are. It isn't supernatural. It isn't a god. It is something that those of us who try to pursue it must find within ourselves and it requires discipline and work and the honesty to admit error.

So Evmori, there's an answer to your question from an atheist who was a scout and is a scout leader.

 

One more thing, this whole issue is stupid. The other leaders and the CO and the boys pretty much know 'who' I am, if you get my meaning. While a belief system is a personal matter, and not the business of BSA or any of you, the decision for the makeup of a troop or other unit is a local matter in practice. BSA needs to butt out on personal matters like this. I don't know where this mind control stuff comes from but it doesn't work and never will. And the attempt to do it is destructive. This applies to the whole gay thing as well. Reading through these old threads is amazing...at how much seemingly prurient interest there is an someone else's sexual activities. A lot of us ought to be ashamed.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

How would you know Merlyn? You have stated you have no interest in joining the BSA.

 

You might notice that the statements I made are unrelated to whether I have any interest in joining the BSA, and can be attributed entirely to, e.g. reading.

 

And when asked why an atheist would want to join the BSA, you claim ignorance even though you claim to be defending the rights of atheists!

 

I didn't claim ignorance, I kept asking you why you expected me to know, since I am not an atheist who wants to join the BSA.

 

If you were actually defending the rights of atheists and not just your own, you would know why atheists would want to join the BSA.

 

Why would I know that, Ed? Is that part of your imaginary "defending atheists' rights" packet that you mail out?

 

And by the way Ed, when I helped the ACLU remove school charters, that was defending the rights of atheists, and it didn't really have anything to do with my personal rights since these were schools all across the country, so there's a counterexample right there.

 

You make really bizarre, non-sequitur assumptions, Ed.

[evmori]

You might notice that the statements I made are unrelated to whether I have any interest in joining the BSA

 

I didn't claim ignorance, I kept asking you why you expected me to know, since I am not an atheist who wants to join the BSA.

 

Seems these two contradict each other Merlyn.

 

How were you defending the rights of atheists by having BSA charters removed from schools, Merlyn? If atheists can't join, how are they being denied their rights?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Re-read the statements Ed, they aren't contradictory.

 

And removing school charters ended discrimination against atheists by public schools.

[evmori]

Yeah they are Merlyn.

 

How Merlyn, since atheists can't join anyway?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

They aren't contradictory, Ed. Notice that the first statement only refers to whether I have any interest in joining the BSA. That doesn't contradict my second statement, where I say I have no interest in joining the BSA.

 

And Ed, if a public school runs a club that doesn't allow atheists, the fact that atheists can't join is discriminating against them. But you're ineducable.

[evmori]

Are they required to join? Nope!

[OldGreyEagle]

Merlyn, you keep saying Ed is uneducable, yet you continue to try to do so....

 

What what does that make you?

 

And for the record, I am not saying Ed is uneducable, I think Ed loves to make Merlyn dance and I must say he is a master at it, Ed making Merlyn dance, and gee Merlyn dances well as well

[NJCubScouter]

Ed asks:

 

If atheists can't join, how are they being denied their rights?

 

Ed, I realize that you have a need to contradict everything Merlyn says, but you probably ought to keep in mind that there are other people reading this forum as well. Asking a question like that indicates that you aren't really thinking about the issue, but just being contrary. But I'll answer it anyway: If a public entity owns a unit that does not allow in atheists, the public entity is discriminating against atheists, which violates both state and federal laws against discrimination (by the government) on the basis of religious beliefs. You don't really disagree with that, do you? The BSA itself doesn't disagree with it. I mean, make believe Merlyn doesn't exist for a minute. This is a fellow Scouter here, telling you what is obvious.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[NJCubScouter]

I guess I never responded to the original post in this thread by Beavah, and I don't want it to seem like I am singling out Ed.

 

Beavah writes:

 

Merlyn wrote, once again, that public school chartering of a BSA unit is a civil rights violation in his opinion.

 

Merlyn is so obviously correct in that position that it is hardly worth discussing. As I mention above, I don't think even the BSA disputes that. Local government runs school, school owns troop, troop excludes atheists (because BSA says it has to), hence local government is excluding atheists. Federal law, and as far as I know the law of every state, prohibits discrimination by the government on the basis of religion, which includes the exclusion of atheists. I mean, if you can't admit that, you're just trying to be difficult.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[sherminator505]

Kudos to studentscout.

[NJCubScouter]

Studentscout, you explain how you deal with the word "reverent" in the Scout Law, and I personally find it a reasonable explanation, although probably not what BSA National has in mind. I am wondering, though, what you think of the fact that every time you recite the Scout Oath, you promise to do your duty to "God." Do you find a contradiction between that and your beliefs?

 

I guess I should make clear that I ask that question not to challenge you necessarily, but mainly because I am curious. Maybe I should also explain that for a couple of years during my teenage years, I thought I was an atheist. (In retrospect, whether I actually was an atheist, or just rejecting the "Western" conception of God, especially the idea that God influences events on Earth, is a question I cannot answer.) And yet every week at troop meetings, and at other Scouting events, I recited (and often led) the Scout Oath and Law, and as far as I can recall I never saw a contradiction. I don't know if it was just a teenager's rationalization, or whether deep-down I knew that I actually believed in a higher power, just not the one written about in books, or what. But I'm curious as to what your thought process has been, especially regarding the specific reference to "God" in the Scout Oath.

[GernBlansten]

NJ,

Perhaps an atheist takes the statement in the oath, "To do my duty to God and my country" and focus on the previous statement to that, "On my honor, I will do my BEST"

 

I can see how you can honestly do your best to your duty to god and country and still be an atheist. It's YOUR best.

 

Just the statements further down in the oath, "To keep myself physically strong", looking at the plus sized scouters at roundtable, I just have to assume they are doing THEIR best.