What Would it Take to Change your mind on ...

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, I absolve you of all your sins, past present and future for your defense of the Catholic Church, My father thanks you, my mother thanks you my sister thanks you my brother thanks you and I thank you

 

I suppose I could spin a thread off this spun off thread and title it something like What would it take to change your mind on the Catholic Church, but I think the results would be pretty much like what we have seen here, in effect, there is nothing.

 

Personally I would like to respond to a lot of things presented here but presently am spending most of my time trying to beat back the advancing of the Tridentine (Latin) Mass that BadenP warned us about last December. I have been going to church every Sunday and listening to and reading the text of the Mass, so far no changes. I have scoured the Diocese of Allentown website looking for the announcement of the change back to Latin while systematically going though each Diocese website in the Country looking for what has to be comming soon, the return to the Latin Mass. I have asked Priests if they have been practicing Latin in advance of the return to Latin and as yet none will admit they have any knowledge of such a thing.

 

Pax Vobiscum

[Nachamawat]

With all due respect, Beavah:

 

But just culling these all from the same thread has me thinking Hello Pot, this is the Kettle!

 

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 12:50:24 PM

Interesting version of tolerance and scoutly reverence yeh have.

 

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 4:15:18 PM

I gotta tell yeh, as a non-Catholic and scouter, that I find da prejudice and slurs about da faith of fellow scouters quite disgusting. If that's what some of you are conveying to youth in da BSA, I wish you'd quit da program and go crawl back under whatever rock yeh came from.

 

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 2:06:21 PM

I'm not a Catholic, mind. I think they're a bit odd. But I don't much care for smears.

 

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 3:42:31 PM

Gern, you've got me defending da papists, of all things.

 

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 4:27:13 PM

Yah, do yeh really want to go there? Justifying arguments based on stereotypes because they have a correlational basis?

 

I reckon you're only going to get me to make fun of da professional competence of psychologists again.

 

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 8:12:36 PM

You're not making personal attacks, eh? You're making broad smears against an entire group of people. I'm saying it's disgusting and shameful, because I believe it's disgusting and shameful. I recognize that yeh think da straw man argument you're proposing is rational, but I'm telling you it isn't.

 

 

There are 11 other Scout Laws too you know. It seems I recall something about being Courteous, Kind, and perhaps even Friendly. These quotes dont seem to convey those ideals to me. Seems that maybe you need to reconsider your approach in sharing your thoughts with others because you are certainly not representing a Scout-like behavior to me.

 

[bacchus]

I'm like Beav in the sense I don't think we need to be attacking the Catholics for their beliefs.

 

To you who think the Catholics oppress women, I guess the fact the women still attend suggests otherwise.

 

Gern: "Beav, where is your outrage towards those using their religious teachings to denigrate homosexuals. Isn't that also religious intolerance?"

 

Is there really a religious organization that worships homosexuality?

[Beavah]

Yah, except it's not a society, Gern. It's a religion yeh associate with voluntarily. It's not governing your taxes or your life, it's giving yeh advice on your relationship with God. Like I said, I don't think GSUSA is oppressing men just because there's no path to a leadership role for me as a non-parent male. Scarecrow going to keep making his appearance?

 

BadenP, I get yeh now. I apologize for misinterpreting your intent. There's nothing wrong with criticizing da institution for corruption when and if that is going on. But I reckon you're falling into a trap that's common eh? If you're a pschiatrist, after a while you can start thinking all people are crazy. If what you're dealing with is stressed and upset clergy, then after a while yeh can start thinking all clergy are that way. Even though you know they're not. And like listening to people complain about how terrible their troops are here, you're only seeing one side of da story. Yeh have to be careful not to judge based on that.

 

As to the bit about them being the only true religion or way to salvation or whatnot, here's what da Catholics really say, infallibly:

 

Likewise, other religions to be found everywhere strive variously to answer the restless searchings of the human heart, by proposing "ways" which consist of teachings, rules of life, and sacred ceremonies. The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions. She looks with sincere respect upon those ways of conduct and of life, those rules and teachings which, though differing in many particulars from what she holds and sets forth, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all people...

 

As a consequence, the Church rejects and repudiates as foreign to the mind of Christ any discrimination or harassment of people because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion....

 

This Vatican synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all people are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that in matters religious no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to their own beliefs, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his own beliefs, whether publicly or privately, whether alone or in association with others (within due limits).

 

The brethren divided from us also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as providing access to salvation.

 

Da original Latin is kind of poetic. But it sure seems like they teach yeh don't have to be Catholic for salvation, yeh can find capital-t Truth in non-Christian religions, and that religious freedom is absolute.

 

I don't get their whole hierarchy and infallibility thing, but I have to admit to agreeing with at least this part of what they teach as infallible.

 

Beavah

[NJCubScouter]

bacchus, I do not know of any religions that "worship" homosexuality, but there are some that treat openly gay people equally to heterosexuals. Some have openly gay clergy, I know of the Episcopal Church (though there are some dissenting individual churches) and Reform Judaism to name two. I would assume that Unitarian Universalism makes three, though I don't know that for a fact. Some Conservative congregations accept gay rabbis and some do not. (In Judaism, "Conservative" is the "middle" of the three main movements, Orthodox being the most traditional.) Individual churches of other denominations also do not discriminate against gay people. And in addition to gay clergy, some places of worship will perform gay union ceremonies, marriages or whatever the correct terminology may be in that place. I am not sure which religions will do those ceremonies other than Reform and (some) Conservative Jewish congregations.

 

It's probably also safe to say that the Wiccan religion has the same policy, though that is an assumption.

[OldGreyEagle]

Just in for a few seconds, nothing yet on the return of the Latin Mass, but it's early yet. Something Beavah posted gave me pause

 

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions. She looks with sincere respect upon those ways of conduct and of life, those rules and teachings which, though differing in many particulars from what she holds and sets forth, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all people..."

 

It appears the Catholic Church refers to itself with the feminine pronoun "She". Why would the Catholic Church refer to itself in the feminine if they thought being female was second class?

 

BAck to monitoring websites...

[BadenP]

Beav

 

Believe me I know not all priests and nuns are like my clients, many of them victims of abuse by their fellow clergy. I have several good friends who are priests and we have spirited discussions all the time about religion and we still like and respect each other.

Unfortunately I have seen and experienced some of these same abuses by catholic clergy and that is why I left, not fallen away as you stated. I became an ordained minister and counselor because I felt I could help others lay people and clergy realize that there are alternatives to living with the guilt and anger they feel. The problem is the hierarchy will not admit that the problem is as deeply rooted as it is.

 

OGE: The latin mass information was based on what my priest friends had shared with me, Vatican II changes took over 30 years to be fully incorporated in the mass, but changes are coming

[BadenP]

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[packsaddle]

I know several women who, having confessed to using birth control, were barred from communion by the church for decades. They were devastated. I wonder what term they would apply?

I wonder why their husbands were not similarly barred?

[NJCubScouter]

Being the only member of my household who is not Catholic... well, me and the dog, she was bred in Virginia so she's probably Protestant... and also not liking to comment on other peoples' religions... I think I'll just stay out of this.

[Kahuna]

NJCubScouter writes: but there are some that treat openly gay people equally to heterosexuals. Some have openly gay clergy

 

You can add Buddhism to your list of those who do. Buddhism does not concern itself with sexual orientation.

[NJCubScouter]

It looks like the United Church of Christ (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_church_of_christ) has a policy of equality for gay people also. This is the church that ran the tv ads a few years ago showing various kinds of families being welcomed into the church and saying "God Is Still Speaking" or words to that effect.

 

I'm not a big fan of their view on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as described in the Wikipedia article, but you can't have everything.

[funscout]

I'm late to this discussion.... but getting back to the original question - I actually DID change my mind about homsexuality after I became a parent. Before I had kids, I knew that homosexuality was wrong according to my religion, but I'm afraid I just thought it was okay for others to be that way, as long as I wasn't. Then I had kids and I realized that I needed to be a Christian role model and live up to God's word. I don't condemn PEOPLE who act on their homosexuality, but I no longer condone their ACTIONS. When I sin, I certainly don't expect people to condone my actions, either. It's like the old saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner."

[Trevorum]

The longer we have this discussion (actually these discussions on multiple threads over the years ), the more abundantly clear it becomes to me that the only irrefutable objection to homosexuality is based in religion. Some religions (not all as we have seen in some of the above comments) label homosexuality to be a moral transgression - a "sin".

 

I say "irrefutable" because religious beliefs are immune to scientific evidence. That is to say, science could never yield evidence to convince someone that homosexuality is NOT a sin. Scientific research can (and in my belief probably will in the coming decades) yield evidence that homosexuality 1) is biologically based, 2) occurs for reasons that have nothing to do with "character", and even 3) is an adaptive trait that served to increase group fitness among evolving hominids (see my comment above). However, scientific research can never change what the holy texts say.

 

For this reason (and for the sake of courtesy), I must accept the fact that some people will always see homosexuality as a sin - a moral failing against God's laws. I know I can't change your mind. However, I (and an increasing number of like-minded Americans) will work to prevent you from discriminating against these people in our commonly shared society solely for religious reasons. That is simply un-American.

 

[packsaddle]

Trevorum, I would note that the religious belief of geocentrism was addressed by science and some time later, say, over the next 300 or so years (1633 to 1992), that belief changed.

And while 'evolution' was resisted for a while, the mainstream faiths seem to have mostly come to their senses (with holdouts prominent in these forums).

More recently, in my own memory, the beliefs that supported racial discrimination have changed somewhat, although I grant that it has proceeded with about as much speed as it takes for generations to die and be replaced.

 

Which might be as fast as is possible because basically I agree with you, religious beliefs, if sincerely held by individuals, are unassailable by reason. As Father Reginald Foster noted, "You have to live and die with the stupid ideas." I really like that guy.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)