What Would it Take to Change your mind on ...

[DeaconLance]

"Yet the Catholic Church still holds onto their archaic concept to this day that women are not worthy to be ordained to the priesthood, if that is not the ultimate sign of the oppression/supression of women by the church then I don't know what is."

 

The Catholic Church's teaching that women cannot be ordained priests has nothing to do with "worthiness". No human was more worthy than the Mother of God, yet Christ did not ordain his mother. The Church teaches that the priest stands in the person of Christ, Christ is a divine person with two natures, divine and human, and in his human nature he is male. Christ ordained only males to carry on his priesthood. For these two reasons the Catholic Church believes it is only possible to ordain males to the priesthood. The Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church, Polish National Catholic Church, and some Anglican Catholic/Traditional Anglican Churches also adhere to this belief.

 

Are girls oppressed by the BSA because they can't become Scouts or earn Eagle?

[BadenP]

Beav

 

Oppression of women in western society of course is very different from third world countries where a woman can be killed just for talking to a man not her husband or be dragged out and stoned to death for no reason. In western society the type of oppression the church shows towards women is a psychological and intellectual one and since you have never been a Catholic it is hard for you to understand. It amazes me in this day and age that any woman would even want to be Catholic but many do out of fear from the lies of that tradition that they are the only true religion and the only path to salvation and all other faiths are false. From your hostile attitude in your replies of late maybe you need to reflect on your own views or you can always "crawl back under the rock" you tell others to do. Maybe moosetracker is right about you after all.

[GernBlansten]

Sorry, y'all haven't convinced me that in the eyes of the Catholic church, women are equal. They may hold them in high regard, but in all cases they are 2nd class citizens of the church.

 

Now if you want to talk about the Lutheran church, yeah they are equals, now. So are homosexuals, at least in the ELCA.

 

And Beav, why the personal attacks, eh? What part of scouting is that?

[Trevorum]

 

Maybe we could agree that while the Holy Catholic Church does not "oppress" women, it is nontheless patriarchal.

[evmori]

Well Beav,

when a woman can hold the same positions of power as a man in the church, I'll consider them enlightened. Until then, I'll consider them patriarchal.

 

What church are you talking about because in my church which is a mainline church women can hold the same positions of power as men?

[GernBlansten]

Catholic Church, Ed.

[Beavah]

Sorry, Gern, religious bigotry and prejudice like BadenP's post above and some of da others are to be strongly opposed. If yeh don't understand that to be a part of Scouting, then I reckon yeh don't really understand Scouting.

 

I may not be a Catholic, but I don't much care for bigotry against their religion. It's shameful from scouters.

 

Yah, I also recognize that a miserable feature of modern American public discourse is to ramp up the rhetoric until it is well over the top. Ordinary policy disputes become "he's undermining the constitution!". Ordinary differences of theological perspective become "they're oppressing women!". If yeh meant it as talk show hyperbolic rhetoric, then forgive my interpretation. That's just being a Limbaugh-esque bloviating cad, not a bigot.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[GernBlansten]

Beav, where is your outrage towards those using their religious teachings to denigrate homosexuals. Isn't that also religious intolerance? I just try to use logical comparisons to other religious discrimination and what I view as hypocrisy to expose it. The examples I have presented are based on my opinions, just that. Backed by facts, when available. For that, I get labeled by you as a bad scouter. You are the one making personal attacks here, not me. I haven't felt it from others. Perhaps you should look in the mirror next time you want to play that card.

[Scoutfish]

I don't see BadenP as having a bigoted or prejudiced attitude.

 

He's just staing what he has seen in such an obvious manor by many in the Catholic church.

 

And the thing is, the churches own document may say that women are wonderfull beautiful things that are treated equally by the Cotholic church...but I can also say that money laundering operation posing as a pizza joint will have the smells, the ovens and the signs telling you they are indeed a pizza joint.

 

It may not be church policy to do lots of things, but unfortuneatly, that policy is not the actual people who are acting in any manner towards women.

 

I see it all the time here : No partricular religion, mind youy, but people will swear that the bible says a woman is supposed to cook, clean, and do her wifely duties every night at a man's whim..including making sandwhiches during the superbowl.

 

Those same peole will also justify shooting people just for looking at them "the wrong way:" and point out where the bible condones it.

 

Of course the bible doesn't, but that doesn't change what the people think.

 

Come on Beavah.... BSA policy says that it's supposed to be a boy led program for the boys, and not adults reliving their childhood through the scouts.

 

The Boys vote, take charge and decide everything. The elect PL's and other POR's right?They cook, clean and set up as well as take down tents. They police the grounds afterward.

 

The adults stand in the corner to make sure somebody doesn't get the bright idea to heat up a DO with 2 gallons of gas.

 

But then you read what goes on in thess forums.....

 

So, in a similar fashion, I could say that troops are generally- completely run by adults and not boys.

 

Not dissing BSA, Boy Scouts or adults. But it happens in many place regardless of what BSA policy is.

 

Doesn't mean I am prejudiced towards or bigoted against BSA...just stating what is an open and obvious happining within many,many troops!

[Beavah]

The examples I have presented are based on my opinions, just that. Backed by facts, when available.

 

Yah, I presented yeh with da facts, eh? In the original Latin, straight from da pen of Pope Paul, cosigned by da bishops in their infallible council or whatever. Simple, easy to locate facts which yeh couldn't be bothered to find. Facts located by a young Catholic woman who does not feel in the least bit "oppressed."

 

You're not making personal attacks, eh? You're making broad smears against an entire group of people. I'm saying it's disgusting and shameful, because I believe it's disgusting and shameful. I recognize that yeh think da straw man argument you're proposing is rational, but I'm telling you it isn't.

 

And yep, I say da same things when religious folks like that pseudo-church in Kansas make broad smears against gays and irrational correlational arguments.

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

It amazes me in this day and age that any woman would even want to be Catholic but many do out of fear from the lies of that tradition that they are the only true religion and the only path to salvation and all other faiths are false.

 

Yah, sorry ScoutFish, I believe da statement quoted above is just bigotry, eh? Not to mention false in its characterization of Catholic teaching. Now maybe it's because BadenP is a fallen away Catholic, and such folks often seem to have a chip on their shoulder. But it definitely ain't the more nuanced argument you're making about the difference between policy and practice.

 

Yeh won't get any argument from me that da Catholic hierarchy doesn't always live up to its own ideals. I reckon yeh won't get an argument from most Catholics, either. Same with scouts. I know I don't always live up to my own ideals, so it seems pretty silly to expect it of others, even those that wear funny costumes

 

B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I wouldn't call that a bigoted statement.

 

Matter of fact, from my own experience with people from so many different religions, that seems to be a Motto for each person when it comes to religion in general.

 

Kinda an opening statement for most preachers I have seen on tv too.

 

I will even go so far to say that most religions steadfastly stand behind that statement..although some individuals may think otherwise

(myself included).

 

[GernBlansten]

Let's see.

A hypothetical society where women are not allowed to have any say in the governance of the society, they have no voice. A society where women are not allowed a position of power to change that society, they have no rank. A society where women are relegated to only lowly service roles, usually in the service of men.

 

Would you call that society oppressive? I would.

 

Is that a smear on that society, or a just analysis and comment of it?

[BadenP]

Beav

 

My prejudices, as you call them, come from years counseling priests, nuns, ex priests and ex nuns. The things I have mentioned come from my own experiences being a former Catholic for 40 years and the stories told to me by these clients in a serious crisis of faith. I would never share these experiences with scouts or anyone else for that matter. When you have any institution that has become so internally corrupt and feels they are not accountable to anyone or anything other than its own perverted desires then it is time for some accountability. This is not about Catholic theology, rather how the hierarchy from the pope down to the parish priest preach and truly believe they are above the law of humanity for their actions. It is not the religion, it is the institution that is rotten to the core. Thats a big difference from what you accuse me of Beav.

[evmori]

If it's that oppressive Gern, switch denominations!