What Would it Take to Change your mind on ...

[scoutingagain]

To get back to the original question:

 

I suppose if Barney Frank were to do the kind of about face that Ken Mehlman pulled I'd have to reconsider my opinion. I mean if Barney were to stand up in front of the national media and say, "Yep, I'm ashamed. I've chosen to live an immoral lifestyle all my life and now I change my mind. I'm going desire women from now on and will support the revocation of gay marriage laws."

 

If he did that, I'd reconsider. (Note some sarcasm and probably poor attempt at humor.)

 

 

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[sherminator505]

I would not be saying Yummmmmmmmmmmm. I would be saying a number of words that cannot be used here and that most Scouters would consider to be un-Scoutlike. Make mine chocolate cream please!

[packsaddle]

Wow, who would have thought....? Evidently, the Presbyterian Church (USA) has changed their minds:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha23

Presbyterians Approve Ordination of Gay People

[WAKWIB]

Well, some.

There has been a well known flight to other Presbyterian organizations for those who haven't changed their mind.

The article references that this migration is what turned the tide in the voting in one particular group.

 

"The Presbyterian News Service estimates that approximately 100 congregations have left the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) in the last five years. Several were large congregations, which could help explain why the vote in some presbyteries switched from 2009."

 

It may still be too early in the game to predict exactly how an openly gay clergy effects a denomination. Perhaps in a decade or so. My bet is that those denominations will continue to experience a decline in membership. There has been a large exodus from many mainline denominations for years for a variety of reasons. This step, IMHO, doesn't do much to help that decline.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Well, some.

There has been a well known flight to other Presbyterian organizations for those who haven't changed their mind.

[packsaddle]

WAKWIB, "There has been a large exodus from many mainline denominations for years for a variety of reasons."

Do you have any idea where they're going? How many members does it take to be or not to be a 'mainline' denomination?

Just curious.

[Eagledad]

Our CO is still Presbyterian, they just don't belong to the USA order anymore. I want to say they joined the Presbyterian (International?). I imagine the familes that left went to a Presbyterian Church that hasn't left the USA order.

 

Barry

[bacchus]

"WAKWIB, "There has been a large exodus from many mainline denominations for years for a variety of reasons."

Do you have any idea where they're going?"

 

Probably some other church that does not change with relaxed societal standards of morality.

[Oak Tree]

Do you have any idea where they're going?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-02-16-church_growth_15_ST_N.htm

 

Growing denominations include Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbyterian Church in America.

[neil_b]

My personal opinion is unimportant. If you believe in God, which presumably all the Scouters here do, then what God thinks is the issue. And most of us rely largely on some religious text to understand God's will. For me that is the Bible.

 

If the Bible said nothing on the subject it would be easier to say it's up to the individual concience. However, it's not silent on the topic at all. I have heard many arguments to explain away the Biblical prohibitions of this type of activity, but none of those arguments have made much sense to me. I have read extensively on the topic, so I don't think that anybody is going to come up with anything new that will change my mind.

[BS-87]

This raises an interesting question.

 

What if your CO decides that the pastor will always serve as the COR and all of a sudden you have a gay pastor!

 

You'd have a gay person as a registered leader!

[Horizon]

As a PCUSA Deacon, and a member of a Covenant Network Presbyterian Church - I am thrilled about this. We have been fighting for this for quite awhile, and I am happy that it happened. This does not mean that anyone has to accept a gay or lesbian Minister. The PCUSA does not appoint Ministers to congregations, congregations choose their Minister. This does not mean that a Presbytery has to ordain a gay or lesbian, it only means that gays and lesbians can openly apply to be ordained.

 

Simply put - local control.

 

Yes, it is true that many congregations have left. My congregation has grown in membership as people leave their old congregations that have swiched to other Presbyterian groups.

 

Funny, it took until the 1980s for the Southern congregations to come back (after justifying their pro-slavery bigotry through selective Biblical interpretation). I wonder if it will take another 120 years for the Presbyterians to come back together again, assuming this creates another split.

[neil_b]

"BUT.... As humans, scouters and as ( if you believe) God's children, we are still bound to give gays equal respect."

 

I respect all people until they lose my respect through their actions. Respectable people are people who behave in a way that earns them respect.

 

You say you are Episcopalian (at least nominally if not practicing). Okay, so what about the Episcopal priest who left his wife and family to go live with another guy after deciding he was gay. Do respectable people behave in that way? I don't think so. He then went on to become a bishop. Do I have to respect the people who voted him in as a bishop after they made their choice? They had my respect, but they lost it through their own actions.

[evmori]

I'm on staff at a PCUSA church.

 

I'm still wondering how this is justified Biblically?

[Horizon]

evmori:

 

This is what is published in 10-A:

 

The integrity of the church demands that those who serve in ordained office meet high standardsalways seeking to live according to the life and teaching of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As we affirm in the words of the Theological

Declaration of Barmen: Jesus Christ, as he is attested for us in Holy Scripture, is the one Word of God which we have to trust and obey in life and in death (The Book of Confessions, 8.11).

 

And yet no person follows perfectly; each of us is entirely dependent for our salvation, and for our growth in faith and obedience, on the grace of Christ:

For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had

passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:22b26)

 

 

And:

 

The PC(USA) has no consensus in the interpretation of Scripture on issues of same-sex practice. When convictions about important issues are so different, and so firmly-held, our long-standing Presbyterian commitment to freedom of conscience and mutual forbearance is vital to maintaining our fellowship: That, while under the conviction of the above principle we think it necessary to make effectual provision that all

who are admitted as teachers be sound in the faith, we also believe that there are truths and forms with respect to which men of good characters and principles may differ. And in all these we think it the duty both of private Christians and societies to exercise mutual forbearance toward each other. (Book of Order, G-1.0305)