The fuzzy line of patriotism

[packsaddle]

I am sympathetic to the folks who lose their jobs as their underlying industry fails. I include the thousands of textile mills and millions of textile workers in the South and New England - empty storefronts, abandoned homes, etc throughout both regions. I include the huge numbers of family farmers who have been gobbled up by agribusiness. I include the aquaculture industries that have been outcompeted by cheap imports. I could go on with this list at some length but the point is that when 'life' for America is ruled by a domestic automobile, then 'life' for America has a problem. The rest of the country barely blinked an eye for all those other people, it is as if there's something 'sacred' about the auto industry. IT IS as if they think they're 'entitled'.

 

I say to the auto workers the same thing I have said openly in community centers and citizen meetings in the South: if the workers don't have the wherewithal and the organizational resources to reconfigure their industry in order to compete, or the willingness to take lower pay in order to compete, then THEY have decided their own fate. If, when the curtain finally falls, their residual skills only qualify them to serve hamburgers, then so be it. That is the magic of the free market. It is the American way of self-determination and self-sufficiency. Again I am reminded of what I was told by my superiors when I was in the private sector, "We are paid according to what we contribute."

 

The millions of other workers throughout the country who have long-ago lost their jobs are doing whatever they have to to survive - going back to school, retraining, or moving to some other place...or asking people if they would like to supersize their order. Life isn't great. Families suffer. They're barely hanging on in many cases. They're experiencing the unseen hand and savoring the magic. That's what should have happened for GM and Chrysler, and the crooked, sleazy banking industry, instead of stealing from future generations to take a handout and be supported on the public dole.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[sbemis1]

When you check the GM made end-to-end in Lansing, you're going to find a lot of parts made elsewhere. And with all the inter related overseas investments and partnerships, it becomes pretty difficult to tell whom you are really supporting.

[OldGreyEagle]

Bando, remember I said "all consumerism is local", I havent had your experience and you haven't had mine, but I object to being told to forgo my experience because its "better" for the country...

 

So I buy an American "made" car, and it tanks, who helps me? I just have friends who say did you do your research?

 

Of course now I drive a Nissan Frontier made in Smyrna,Tenn

 

My father's Mercury was assembled in Canada with parts made in Mexico

[Stosh]

Gee, I drove my FORD van 150,000 miles with very little problem other than it finally rusted out. That's normal for my part of the country where the state road crews take a kickback for salting the roads and rusting the cars.

 

But.... my Ford truck was made in Canada..... What's with that?

 

I'm thinking Toyota has assembly plants in America....

 

Buying the label isn't all that patriotic anymore.

 

And by the way, 99% of all the electronic devices in the world are NOT made in America. Toss your cell phone, turn off the TV, throw away your radio! It's an un-American plot to take over your lives!

 

We live in a global economic culture. Get used to it, it's not going to go away anytime soon. I'm still not ready to purchase items made in Vietnam, but that's just a personal issue.

 

Stosh

[ScoutNut]

For those of you who are hot to buy only American cars - where do you think the steel that is in those cars comes from?

 

We import about one forth of our steel. About 20% of the steel companies left in the US are foreign owned, so even if you are not buying directly imported steel, like the Toyota built in Indiana, you could very well be buying from a foreign company.

 

That "end-to-end" Lansing made GM car can be built on a foreign made steel frame. As could the house you live in.

 

When the steel industry in the US went belly up, hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs, and hundreds of thousands more lost their retirement and health benefits. That does not count the hundreds of thousands of folks who lost their livelihood, and their homes because their community, that was based on the local steel industry, collapsed.

 

It was horrible. However, it did not kill the US, as many predicted it would.

 

Government bailouts did not help the US steel industry. Going bankrupt did.

 

BTW - the advertising for that Lansing made GM car was by a company owned by a French ad conglomerate.

 

Stop patting yourselves on the back for "buying American", because the odds are NOTHING you buy or use is 100% American.

 

Personally, if the place I purchase something from is located in the US, giving jobs to people in the US, that works for me.

 

If some consider that unpatriotic, they are living with blinders on.

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

As one living in Bethlehem, PA, I concur with ScoutNut

[CalicoPenn]

"It was horrible. However, it did not kill the US, as many predicted it would."

 

I would argue that the jury is still out on that one.

 

When the textile industry crashed in the US, it may not have killed the US, but it sure did wound it deeply.

 

When the electronics industry crashed in the US, it may not have killed the US, but it sure did wound it deeply.

 

When the furniture industry crashed in the US, it may not have killed the US, but it sure did wound it deeply.

 

When the steel industry crashed in the US, it may not have killed the US, but it sure did wound it deeply.

 

When the agricultural industry went from many small farms and purchasing cooperatives to large agri-business conglomerates, it didn't kill the US, but it sure has wounded it deeply (even if most of us haven't recognized it yet - if ag business starts failing like the steel industry, we could be in serious trouble trying to feed our 350 million people, let alone half the rest of the world).

 

When Wal-Mart/Starbucks/McDonalds/insert favorite retail villain here wounded our small towns, it didn't kill the US, but it sure did wound it deeply.

 

The US has gone from an agricultural/manufacturing society to a financial/service/consumer society. If history has taught us anything, it is that countries/empires that move from a stable self-reliant base where most of the goods we use are manufactured/grown in the country to an unstable rely-on-others base, where most of the goods we use are manufactured/grown in other countries, then the country/empire grows weak and is apt to fail. Apparently, we've decided not to learn from history.

 

Sure, all those industries that tanked didn't kill the country as they did so - but the loss of those industries should be deeply felt wounds that have led to increased destabilization of the US. Think of it as a "Jenga" game - the more blocks you take away, the weaker the structure.

 

I have to wonder if the loss of GM and Chrysler would have been just one more block being taken away, or would have been the block that made the whole structure crumble away. Rather than suggesting that we should have let the auto industry go away - one of the last remaining large scale manufacturing industries in the US - we should instead be insisting that we do what it takes, including tariffs on foreign goods and repeal of free trade agreements, to rebuild our countries steel, textile, furniture, electronics, and other industrial businesses.

 

Isn't that the most patriotic thing we could possibly do? Support our country and it's people by ensuring that we can stand tall and accomplish what we need to accomplish, no matter what? Imagine what things would have been like for us during WW2 if we relied on Germany, France and England for all of our manufactured goods, instead of having our own industrial base that could be re-geared towards the war effort.

 

The US may not have been killed, yet, but if we ever do fail, I have little doubt that historians will point to the 1980's as the beginning of the end - where we started abandoning agriculture and industry for finance - and that in the end, the demise of the textile, steel, electronics, furniture, automotive, etc. industries will be considered the cause of death.

[Narraticong]

I can throw a rock from my house the General Motors Technical Center in Warren, Michigan. I can guarantee they have invested billions of dollars in that center in the 20 years I have lived here. Dodge manufactures pickups two miles away.

 

I have watched many good Scouters lose their jobs in the economy over the past several years. Many of them have been unable to find work after several years.

 

Few, if any vehicles are totally made in America. Agreed. But My family will continue to support our neighbors by buying vehicles made by corporations which have local roots.

 

Ken

[Beavah]

Yah, what is that now, like a half dozen deep wounds? I don't reckon da patient would still be breathing.

 

Sorry, industries that aren't competitive should fail, not be turned into state-run enterprises at taxpayer expense, (or buy a congressman and be protected by some tom-fool tariff or other monopoly or whatnot). Yeh don't have a right to my business or to take money from my taxes. Yeh have an opportunity to produce a superior product more efficiently and thereby earn a living. And if yeh can't do a better job locally without da same high shipping cost as importers, then I reckon yeh shouldn't be in the business.

 

All those "deep wounds" in fact increased our standard of living. We could feed more people, more cheaply. Clothe more people, more cheaply. We can buy cars that run for 200K+ miles, not da 62K before the transmission fail on my last Ford. Sorry, but competition and consequences are good for the country, not bad for it. Propping up inefficient businesses, either by bailouts or by "buy American" campaigns are what's bad for da country. Yeh don't have a right to make your neighbors poorer so you can keep doing a lousy job.

 

Yah, sure, sometimes there's a place for charity. If yeh buy an American car da same way you buy overpriced popcorn each fall, as a donation, that's your choice. I don't do charity for for-profit companies myself. Better to give to your local colleges and other schools and such to help people improve themselves.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Yeah, that works for me too!

 

 

Back in 1989 or 1990, I was reading an article in "Peterson's four wheel and off road " magazine.

 

It was an article on "The Most American 4X4".

 

At that time, Toyota was..based on orgins of parts and where the parts were made.

 

Toyota was ( at the time) 87 percent American based on the tranny, engine block, transfer case, axle assemblies,frame, and wheels and hubs.

 

The interior stuff and almost( not all, but close) to all the electrical stuff came from Asia.

 

TRhis was the cse for all the American trucks too: Mazda and Ford woring together, GM and Isuzu working together, Jeep and some German company that I cannot remember and Dodge worked with somebody too, but in a minimal way compared to others.

 

It didn't change the buying market, but was an interesting eye opener if you read it.

 

Again, I'm proud of America, but I am also inclined to treat myself to what I like since I used alot of sweat and time to earn it.

 

Truth be told though, as was mentioned above: This being a global economy - the corporate office is in one coumtry, the design shop and test lab in another, and the manufacturing plant in a third. But the raw materials come from a fourth, the finished ( yet unassembled ) parts get assembled in a fith country, then sent to the main assembly plant in the third.

 

Might just be that I am supporting America, but also 4 other countries at the same time.

 

Might be that...That is the most American as I can get with my support.

[Woapalanne]

"Then take Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Formed/ founded outside America, yet they build factories in America, hire American workers who in turn spend money at their local stores, local economy, etc.."

 

You forgot BMW. They just opened a $750,000,000 expansion here, hiring thousands more, and moving X3 production from Austria to South Carolina. Dozens of supplier companies are building or expanding here, and our ICAR (International Center for Automotive Research) is world class!!