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Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?


LIBob

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Yah, studentscout, I get yeh.

 

Problem is we just don't have words for this stuff that somebody like Merlyn (or an equally self-righteous Christian) can't torque around in some odd way in order to scratch a personal itch. Maybe AA's "Higher Power" is da closest, but even that doesn't work (and it would cause a firestorm from da folks who get torqued about a word change from "God." :p) Merlyn OTOH always gets horked off about da "God" word, but misses the bit about da BSA being "absolutely non-sectarian".

 

The point of the DRP and the Oath is that in order to be "the best kind of citizen", yeh need to have a belief system which meets a few criteria:

 

1) It has to be "bigger" than yourself. Bigger than your family, tribe, or nation.

 

2) It has to impose some form of obligation / calling / personal ethic on you, by which you reflect on your own actions and work to improve.

 

3) It can't be silly or "evil." No Spaghetti monsters or Satanists. It has to call you to be a better person.

 

How's that for yeh? That's the gist of it anyway. Without some "higher something", how do yeh criticize torture when da state makes it legal? Without some "higher something" how do yeh justify or encourage personal sacrifice to benefit others without any possibility of "getting something out of it"? Without some "higher thingamajig", what causes you to reflect on and challenge your own actions? Even if religion were fake, we'd have to invent it just to teach good citizenship. That's why even da "atheist" regimes around the world develop the personality-cult pseudo religions around their "Dear Leader".

 

So all that applies just fine to Buddhists and Taoists; both of those transcend family/tribe/nationality; both have teachings which call adherents to personal growth and enlightenment.

 

As you've found, for youth, da BSA is generally a welcoming and friendly place, even for youth members who, like Merlyn, find themselves being "atheists" for a bit when they inevitably become disillusioned with God/religion because of the poor behavior of us religious folks, or when they become bright and alert enough to question but haven't yet found da answers. The DRP applies only to adult leaders, who should be good examples to the youth who are still on da trail.

 

Beavah

 

 

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I would like to thank Mr. LeRoy for inspiring Beavah to write as he does. That last piece was very good, and speaks my mind.

 

Beavah: Are my PMs still not reaching you? I have had some email conversations with some others of late, but no response from you.

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The way I see it is the DRP is just too loose to really be of value. Heck, one could believe in a rock, The Force, Elvis or any other organized religous movement and meet the requirements of the DRP. Except pure atheism. Those that profess that, are not welcome. But everyone else is.

 

But it aligns with the rest of the scout oath. There is no DFP (Declaration of Fitness Principles). If there were, how many of the roundtable jelly donut eating WBadgers would be eligble?

 

Perhaps I should call one out next time I see one at roundtable.

 

Scouter Blansten: What is that? What the heck is that? WHAT IS THAT, SCOUTER PYLE?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, a jelly doughnut, sir!

Scouter Blansten: A jelly doughnut?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, yes, sir!

Scouter Blansten: How did it get here?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, I took it from the welcome tray, sir!

Scouter Blansten: Is chow allowed in the roundtable, Scouter Pyle?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, no, sir!

Scouter Blansten: Are you allowed to eat jelly doughnuts, Scouter Pyle?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, no, sir!

Scouter Blansten: And why not, Scouter Pyle?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, because I'm too heavy, sir!

Scouter Blansten: Because you are a disgusting fat body, Scouter Pyle!

Scouter Pyle: Sir, yes, sir!

Scouter Blansten: Then why did you try to sneak a jelly doughnut into roundtable, Scouter Pyle?

Scouter Pyle: Sir, because I was hungry, sir!

Scouter Blansten: Because you were hungry...

[turns and addresses rest of roundtable]

Scouter Blansten: Scouter Pyle has dishonored himself and dishonored the roundtable. I have tried to help him. But I have failed. I have failed because YOU have not helped me. YOU people, have not given Scouter Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, whenever Scouter Pyle messes up, I will not punish him! I will punish all of YOU! And the way I see it ladies, you owe me for ONE JELLY DOUGHNUT! NOW, GET DOWN ON YOUR FACES!

[rest of roundtable get in front-leaning-rest position, Blansten turns to Pyle]

Scouter Blansten: Open your mouth!

[shoves jelly doughnut into PYLE's mouth]

Scouter Blansten: They're payin' for it; YOU eat it! Ready! Exercise!

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Beavah writes:

Without some "higher something", how do yeh criticize torture when da state makes it legal?

 

The same way I criticize anything else.

 

How do you criticize torture if the state says that what god wants?

 

Without some "higher something" how do yeh justify or encourage personal sacrifice to benefit others without any possibility of "getting something out of it"?

 

I give blood platelets (hit 10 gallons a bit ago). I guess I must not actually do that.

 

Without some "higher thingamajig", what causes you to reflect on and challenge your own actions?

 

Thinking about your own actions is way better than following whatever some religion tells you to do.

 

Even if religion were fake, we'd have to invent it just to teach good citizenship.

 

So the only way to teach good citizenship is by making up an absolute moral dictator? I don't agree with that, that's the moral development level of a 3-year-old -- absolute rules, and if you disobey, you get punished. That's the lowest moral level.

 

The DRP applies only to adult leaders

 

Better tell the BSA that, they still have this on their youth form:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406A.pdf

...

Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle

[DRP excerpt]

Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

...

 

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Gern, I confess you lost me with the jelly doughnut. But I'm tired and completely lacerated from picking blackberries all afternoon. Got a few gallons, this year is a great crop and it's almost over. It's amazing how no matter what care you take snaking an arm through the brambles, at least one of those recurved thorns will hook into skin and then as you pull back with a hand full of berries, it will pull more thorns into the arm...but the berries are worth it so you just drag yourself out bleeding and full of thorns broken off in the skin and....say, is that poison ivy in there as well?...oh well, the berries are still worth it....hey, there sure are a lot of yellow jackets buzzing around suddenly...but the berries are still worth it...and, well, each of them evidently can sting more than once so you jerk your arm out a little carelessly and now that set of canes that you had carefully avoided right behind you...now you just bumped them and a couple are embedded in your scalp...but the berries are worth it as you turn, bleeding, covered with sweat and bees, and man, the last time I felt anything like that in my scalp was when I took a girl friend fishing and she stuck a Kastmaster into my head at high velocity but at least that was just a treble hook, this thing is like a saw blade leaving teeth behind...I gotta get away from those bees, but the berries are worth it...and chiggers and oh heck, I just spilled the berries - I have to pick all of them off the ground in all these brambles, this will take a while, they're worth it...eeeeyoooowwwww I've been squatting on a fire ant mound. But the berries are worth it. Just like when I was a boy...without the snakes. I long for those snakes.

I'm home now, berries packed for the freezer to be carefully rationed until next crop. H'mmm, that's gotta be the 10th tick so far...and embedded too. Worth it. I think I feel a chigger bite starting to itch. Those berries are really going to be good.

Now, what were we talking about?

 

Oh yeah, Eagledad, I intended that to be speaking to myself, no need for me to read further but I did anyway. Oh well. The berries are really great this year, I think I'll do it again tomorrow.

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There has been a lack of true scout spirit in the last few pages of this thread.

 

Would everyone please take a moment and repeat after me...

A Scout (and Scouter) is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Now, as to my opinion on the original post.

Any boy or parent who can look at the Scout oath, law, and DRP and say "In my mind, my beliefs fit in these principles without alteration or qualification" can be and is welcome in Scouting. PERIOD.

 

 

Why some are so intent on keeping BOYS out of Scouting I will never know...

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Yah, Gern, I know I've seen da movie, but I can't place it. Stripes?

 

While I'd like to see scouters be a better example of fitness (just like I'd like to see us all be a better example of mentally awake and morally straight and all da rest of it ;) ). I don't reckon we go drill sergeant on lads who are toying with atheism, eh? I reckon our more well rounded scouters deserve the same sort of consideration and respect.

 

Love your and pack's new version of "pie", though I'm not convinced that pie belongs in issues and politics. Us pigs need a pen to wallow in in peace. Besides, I'd just fed Merlyn a whole raft of new material, and he took da bait. :)

 

But berries ... Mmmmm.... Berries are always worth it.

 

Beavah

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I guess perhaps even if I beleived Beavah should face something but that would mean I would also have to be on the guard for the baiting dance you and Ed do and to tell you the truth, I dont have the time or frankly the intellect to keep up on who is baiting who and which person is the victim and who the agressor is.

 

Beavah, thats Full Metal Jacket, the movie that introduced the world to R Lee Ermey to the world. Personally I love that Geico Comercial with Ermey as the therapist wanting to book his patient on a trip to Namby Pamby land to look for self-confidence.

 

Pyle of course was played by Vincent D'Onofrio an actors actor if there ever was one

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Ah, Full Metal Jacket! Of course. One of da best drill sergeant performances ever, but not as much fun as Stripes.

 

Gern, dats a bit odd for you, eh? I would have expected you were more of a Stripes fellow. :)

 

Beavah

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Merlyn

 

You are really something you attack Beavah and then run to OGE crying foul when he gives you a taste of your own medicine. What goes around comes around, you have taken what was an interesting thread about Taoists in scouting and corrupted it with your own personal agenda. Your tiresome unchanging rhetoric really does get irritating sometimes, if you want examples every one of your posts on this thread is off topic and irrelevant, as well as plainly false. I for one think having Taoists, Shintoists, and Buddists adds a much needed and a wonderful new dimension to Scoutings understanding and appreciation of different religious traditions. A scout is reverent.

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BadenP, I actually argue my views. That's one reason I insist that people quote what I've actually written if they accuse me of e.g. lying, and why I often quote other people and point out exactly where I disagree or what I'm referring to. People who just complain about my posts using generalities instead of examples are just blowing smoke until they quote me. Pretenders like Beavah are just wasting space.

 

You'll notice I answered Beavah's post and pointed out (yet again) where he was wrong (for example, he said the DRP only applies to adults, so I posted an URL to the BSA's own website and quoted part of the youth membership form where the youth clearly has to follow the DRP).

This is a rather important detail, since this original thread was started because LIBob wondered if Taoists with widely differing beliefs, could join the BSA. There's a significant difference if youth need to subscribe to the DRP, or don't need to.

 

So correcting Beavah on this point is relevant to this thread. But Beavah didn't even acknowledge his error. He'll likely bring up the same false information in the future, possibly misleading people on what the BSA's religious requirements really are.

 

But accuracy is only important to people who want a genuine discussion. You don't need just to bait or insult people, but then you don't need this forum, either.

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Sigh. OK Merlyn.

 

You claimed that because you read an online form (the youth application), that you as an outsider to the BSA must be right about da way the BSA works, and I (as a long-time scouter at several different levels of the organization) must be wrong.

 

First, let's recognize that searching the internet is a very weak substitute for actually talkin' to experts in an area. Second let's recognize that da purpose of a single form in an organization is to be a form, not to be an extensive discussion of policy or whatnot. Forms get put together by a few random people in an office, not voted on by the executive board.

 

So on both counts, your "evidence" is ridiculously weak in the face of the expert testimony of dozens of scouters on how da BSA actually treats things, some of whom do or have served at da national level.

 

Now, let's look at the form itself. Not just your excerpt, but the entire form in context. Because, yeh see, entire arguments in context are important. While it's fun to take one-line excerpts and twist 'em around, it isn't honest or accurate. Yep, that's right, for the first time I am actually calling your analysis (intellectually) dishonest.

 

So what do yeh suppose is the context of an application form? Well, it's to let parents who are interested know a few relevant things. In this case, da office staff who put the form together just clipped excerpts from different places. So yeh only got an excerpt of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and an excerpt of the charter agreement and such. Just da briefest generalities, not detailed application of policy.

 

What do those excerpts say? Well for one,

 

"Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle."

 

That's da first bullet under "Program Policies", eh? So if yeh accurately read for what the program policy of the BSA is, it's that ADULT LEADERSHIP must subscribe to the "precepts" of the DRP. There is nothing in the section titled "Program Polices" about youth and the DRP, is there?

 

Now, let's look at da DRP excerpt. It says that the BSA "recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life."

 

So the BSA says that as a matter of policy, it is absolutely non-sectarian, supports a "religious element", and treats that as something left to the parents and da religious body. Including Taoists and all sorts of -ists and -isms.

 

Finally, if you compare the Youth Application with the Adult Application, you will note that on the Adult Application there is a required signature by the adult that states that they agree to comply with the Charter & Bylaws & Rules & Regulations of the BSA (including the full DRP). However, on the youth application there is no such signature line for either parents or youth. So a simple comparison of the forms demonstrates that the expectations for youth and adult members are different, and that only the adult members are required to subscribe to the general precepts of the DRP.

 

So, to summarize, your analysis is dead wrong because:

 

1) You ignored the expert testimony of the dozens of scouters of various levels who gave you detailed and nuanced descriptions about how the BSA's policy is interpreted and applied.

 

2) You based your analysis on a single form rather than on the full body of BSA literature, training and practice.

 

3) The form on which your analysis was based is not a policy document.

 

4) When you actually examine the form itself, a clear reading of the full form refutes your assertion.

 

5) When you examine the form itself, you note that unlike the adult application, there is no required signature or agreement to abide by the DRP.

 

Now that your analysis has been thoroughly refuted, I trust yeh will follow your own prescription and refrain from bringing up "the same false information in the future, possibly misleading people on what the BSA's religious requirements really are."

 

Of course, I don't reckon that any of us are holding our breath, eh? :p You aren't bound by a "higher thingamajig" to try to live up to a set of ideals. ;)

 

Yours in Scouting Service,

 

Beavah

and a good ol' Beavah too!

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Wow, beavah, you have the gall to call ME dishonest with your ridiculous "analysis"?

 

The membership form for a youth member clearly states that members have to subscribe to the precepts of the DRP. Unless you're trying to argue that youth members aren't "membership."

 

Then, of course, you bring in the red herring of how people in the BSA ignore the BSA's own requirements. You can show that gays and atheists can join using that standard, since there people who ignore those rules, too.

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Yah, hmmmm...

 

If yeh reject expert testimony from multiple sources who are much closer to the topic than you are...

If yeh ignore all other documents, training, and evidence that refutes your conclusion...

If yeh refuse to do a full read of the document in question, and instead base your conclusion on just a line or two...

If yeh then misinterpret da meaning of the line or two because of all of the above...

 

Then you're probably one of those fellows who is a climate change denier, eh? Because yeh can point to a few sentences in one component study of da IPCC report that when pulled from their context seem to make your point. :p

 

Surely, yeh aren't really going to claim that approach amounts to honest intellectual rigor?

 

After all, if we reflect your (actual, quoted) words back to you:

 

*** "I answered [your] post and pointed out (yet again) where [you were] wrong", using quotes as you suggested.

*** After "correcting [Merlyn] on this point ... [Merlyn] didn't even acknowledge his error. He'll likely bring up the same false information in the future, possibly misleading people on what the BSA's religious requirements really are. But accuracy is only important to people who want a genuine discussion. "

 

I leave yeh with da task of personal reflection on whether your own principles and criticisms apply to yourself. :)

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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