Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?

[DeaconLance]

LIBob,

 

Religious Emblems are not BSA awards. They are awards of the faiths bestowing them that the BSA permits to be worn on the scout unifom. The BSA does not create Religious Emblems. It is up to the faith to create the program and award then approach the BSA for official recognition.

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously? Are you blindly grabbing now? Maybe on summer vacation?Even YOU can do better than to quote somebody who is asking about something they heard from a non BSA "somewhere" source , and try to pass it off as if BSA said or claimed that person's question as policy.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

LIBob writes:

Your input is also welcome here but as I am relatively new to scouter.com it might help me if you could pin your advice to your own experiences in scouting.

 

I was only in scouting in the 1960s; in my area (central MN), religion wasn't an issue. My mom was a den mother and I was a cub scout and we were both atheists.

 

My own opinion is that since BSA includes Zoroastriansim and Meher Barbar(ism) among its religious awards, but excludes Taoism among its religious awards, then perhaps some powerful guy in Texas has made certain, unsophisticated provincialish judgements about Taoism and God.

 

Religious awards are created by members of that religion, not the BSA; the BSA only recognizes awards. However, the BSA changed their rules some years back in order to keep a Wiccan award from being created (which met all their old requirements, but could not meet their new requirements since they would have to charter at least 25 units, and the BSA flatly refused to allow Wiccan organizations to charter units). So it could be due to animus, or just no Taoist group has tried to create an award.

 

As far as proof, I don't know of any case where a person known to the national BSA to be an atheist was allowed to continue being a member, and I can give you lots of links to court cases where BSA officials have stated that atheists can't be members, and news stories where atheists have been kicked out or refused membership. Being a Taoist might help, because lots of people can't understand that not all religions require a belief in god(s), but like I say, it's a crapshoot.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Seriously, Scoutfish. If the BSA says you have to believe in a god, and a member of a religion does NOT believe in a god, that pretty much means the BSA membership requirements exclude them. Lots of people like to try and dance around this, which I find pointless.

[Scoutfish]

Also Merlyn, It was pointewd out by you:

 

 

Really? Where did you read that? I would bet big bucks it was NOT in any BSA publication.

 

How about the DRP, quoted earlier?

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God."

 

 

How about the ENTIRE DPR which includes:

 

No MATTER WHAT THE RELIGIOUS FAITH OF THE MEMBERS MAY BE , this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely NONSECTARIAN in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the HOME and the ORGANAZATION or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

Yeah, I capped for emphasis ..which busts a hole in your "attempted" manipulation of the DRP into being a statement of

 

" Doesn't appear to allow multiple gods, and the BSA sure doesn't clarify things."

 

It is ytour opinion....no doubt about that, but it ain't fact or DRP!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The rest of the DRP doesn't remove the requirement given in the first line.

 

Why are you trying to dance around this, anyway? Don't you want the BSA to keep out Taoists who are atheists?

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

The only thing pointless is your arguement on tis post!

Everybody who has answered LIBob - and coincidentaly happen to be active scouters or parents of active scouts or religious - have stated that Taoists are welcome and have taken the time to explain that to LIBob with open welcoming arms.

 

Then you step in. The athiest ( which I respect, mine you) - the only person who is saying that Toaists ( as well as others) are not welcome.

 

Do you not see how asinine that is? The outsider ( for lack of better wording) is explaining BSA policy and qouting a non BSA source, then arguing against active members of BSA and saying that the officail BSA source is wrong.

 

I don't know wether to laugh or just feel sorry for you on that arguement.

 

You might as well say: " I am not in scouting, am not an active member, and I do not like scouting, but I know better than all the scouts who are into scouting and active members of BSA!

 

Why not say ( as a source) : "I had a friend who's dad knew somebody who lived beside a guy who was a cubscout back in 1960."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

Everybody who has answered LIBob - and coincidentaly happen to be active scouters or parents of active scouts or religious - have stated that Taoists are welcome and have taken the time to explain that to LIBob with open welcoming arms.

 

And since I pay attention to what the national BSA does, I can also explain to him that every atheist known to the national BSA gets kicked out.

 

Then you step in. The athiest ( which I respect, mine you) - the only person who is saying that Toaists ( as well as others) are not welcome.

 

Stop misrepresenting my position.

 

Taoists WHO ARE ALSO ATHEISTS are not welcome.

 

Got that?

 

Here it is again, because you can't appear to read.

 

Taoists WHO ARE ALSO ATHEISTS are not welcome.

 

LIBob's original post clearly spelled out that NOT ALL TAOISTS BELIEVE IN GOD.

 

Keep dancing around the BSA's exclusion of atheists if you like. The BSA, officially, does not allow atheists to be members. Atheists who are also Taoists do not meet the membership requirements.

[Scoutfish]

"Why are you trying to dance around this, anyway? Don't you want the BSA to keep out Taoists who are atheists?"

 

That's just it...I'm NOT DANCING! I stated VERY CLEARLY AND PLAINLY that Taoists would be welcome. No spin, no twisting of words, no dancing.

 

You..you, not me - not anybody else ...but you = qouted LIBob words about "then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist."

 

And please tell me how you came to the conclusion that Taoists are athiests. Nothing I read on this site or Wikipedia says that Taoists are athiests..only that they do not suscribe to the western idea of god. They have their own version of what it means...which incidentally, is covered by the DRP and welcomed by BSA.

 

Now, you claim they are athiests, but only you.

Hmmmm, you wouldn't be lying. misleading or slandering just to try to prove something now would you? Cause if you have to lie to prove it...then you only prove yourself as untrustworthy and a fool.

 

Again, I respect your right to be athiest, but that does not mean I will respect your want to twist things, make things up or mislead others under false pretenses.

 

You used that in your attempted arguement about DRP, not I, any other BSA member or BSA itself.

 

You claimed it, so don't try to say I am dancing.

 

[LIBob]

Merlyn wrote:

Seriously, Scoutfish. If the BSA says you have to believe in a god, and a member of a religion does NOT believe in a god, that pretty much means the BSA membership requirements exclude them. Lots of people like to try and dance around this, which I find pointless.

 

Well, that't the thing about Taoists. If you back one into a corner (difficult thing to do), and made him/her argumentative (a darn near impossible thing to do since Taoists are by nature non-argumentative), you could, with a set of slick Socratic arguments

back him/her into accepting

- most Taoists will tell you there are many gods (and therefore Taoism is polytheistic), OR

- most Taoists will tell you one god or one series of embodiments of the smae god, is superior to all the lesser gods (and therfore Taoism is monotheistic or trinitistic),

- most Taoists wil tell you that none of teh gods can violate or change the eternal "Way," and therefore Taoists do not believe in any god in the western sense.

 

So basically, a person who is sufficiently argumentative (or sufficeintly Texan, or sufficiently LDS), could subscrie to some provincial view of Taoism.

 

It si enteirely possible that one or more powerful folks in irving wish to exclude Taoists . . . . but that does not make the right and it does not mean they actualy have any control over the decisions of individual SM's.

 

If I can point to a leading atheist who believes in child sex or euthanizeing minority children does that mean 20% of all atheists share his belief? Of course not.

 

 

So, back in reality, if a Texas Mormon professional scouter has declared "Buddhists are okay but Taoists are not" does that mean anything at all to a ground level Taoist boy trying to enter a scout troop? so far the answers on this thread indicate "no." Is the proper answer.

 

 

1.

In Louisiana there is a law that donkeys cannot sleep in bathtubs. Does that mean Louisiana is anti-donkey?? anti-bathdtub??

Heck no. Sometimes "facts on the ground" mean a lot more than sophomore philosophhy talk.

 

2.

In BSA there is a rule that a scout must profess a belief in (one universal and monotheistic all-powerful) God. Of course the actual BSA rules eliminate everything in paranthases, but the paranthesis certainly are implied. Does that mean BSA is anti-Taoist?

I'm not a hundred percent certain, but so far "facts on the ground" indicate Taoists are welcome.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

That's just it...I'm NOT DANCING! I stated VERY CLEARLY AND PLAINLY that Taoists would be welcome. No spin, no twisting of words, no dancing.

 

Taoists who are atheists do not meet the membership requirements.

 

You..you, not me - not anybody else ...but you = qouted LIBob words about "then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist."

 

Because he was pointing out that not all Taoists believe in a god, and wanted to know if this might be a problem. The answer is yes.

 

And please tell me how you came to the conclusion that Taoists are athiests.

 

Wow, you really CAN'T read, can you?

 

Taoists WHO ARE ALSO ATHEISTS are not welcome.

 

I am not saying that ALL TAOISTS ARE ATHEISTS.

 

SOME TAOISTS ARE ATHEISTS.

 

If you read LIBob's original post, you'd realize that. If you googled for "taoist atheist" you'd find some.

 

Now, you claim they are athiests, but only you.

 

No, I'm claiming that TAOISTS ****CAN BE**** ATHEISTS.

 

LEARN TO READ.

 

Hmmmm, you wouldn't be lying. misleading or slandering just to try to prove something now would you? Cause if you have to lie to prove it...then you only prove yourself as untrustworthy and a fool.

 

You just can't read.

 

SOME Taoists are atheists.

SOME Taoists are NOT atheists.

 

The Taoists who are atheists don't meet the BSA membership requirements.

 

[LIBob]

Scoutfish wrote:

Everybody who has answered LIBob - and coincidentally happen to be active scouters or parents of active scouts or religious - have stated that Taoists are welcome and have taken the time to explain that to LIBob with open welcoming arms.

 

Yes.

That has been the common denominator.

 

Every active scouter who has taken the time to reply has said emphatically Taoists are welcome.

 

I thank you all again for your replies.

 

 

The BSA rules, strictly (or perhaps erroneously) interpreted may tend to indicate otherwise. heck, maybe some meaningless guy in Irving TX really is anti-taoist.

 

But the facts on the ground, repeated, re-repeated, and re-re-repeated tell me "Taoists are welcome."

 

The bona fide active scouters on this forum are pretty unanimous "Taoists are welcome."

 

 

While I welcome merlyn's input the facts on the ground seem to be speaking loudly and clearly. tomorrow, during our 5-mile hike I will suggest that my son PJ invite Allen Yang (Young) to join his roop.

 

 

Again, I sincerely thank you all for your responses.

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn, I can read just fine. You do understand the concept of "read" don't you?

 

Now, if you meant :"assume or use "ESP" then your arguement migh almost be valid...but you didn't. You said "Read" which I did.

 

Nowhere...I repeat...NOWHERE did you say

 

"Taoists who are athiests". But you did say :

 

"And, of course, Taoists who are the sort that believe that since no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist can't join, period."

 

But let me point out two mistakes YOU stated.

 

First off, You quoted LIBob again. LIBob said "No god is above "the way".."

 

He did not that they did not believe in a god, just that he/she/it wasn't above "the way" . Or I can make it easier for you" "The way"is higher than god.

 

Secondly, you keep refering to a westernsense of god as a standard of religion for the BSA that the DRP specificaly does not state.

 

Matter of fact, the DRP says : ".....No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training...."

 

And please...This part didn't say the first sentance was overruled, but the first sentance didn't declare itself as the sole definition and ruling key to all of the DRP either!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

LIBob writes:

I'm not a hundred percent certain, but so far "facts on the ground" indicate Taoists are welcome.

 

Only the ones who aren't atheists. Why is this hard to understand? BSA officials have stated a large number of times that members have to believe in a god. If you have a Taoist who believes in a god, fine; if not, they aren't welcome.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

Merlyn, I can read just fine. You do understand the concept of "read" don't you?

 

Now, if you meant :"assume or use "ESP" then your arguement migh almost be valid...but you didn't. You said "Read" which I did.

 

Nowhere...I repeat...NOWHERE did you say

 

"Taoists who are athiests".

 

Wrong. Look at the 4th message I posted:

The rest of the DRP doesn't remove the requirement given in the first line.

 

Why are you trying to dance around this, anyway? Don't you want the BSA to keep out Taoists who are atheists?

 

I admit, I spelled "atheists" correctly, instead of "athiests" as you just wrote.

 

But you did say :

 

"And, of course, Taoists who are the sort that believe that since no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist can't join, period."

 

In my first post, yes; notice the italics in the original, where I was quoting LIBob's description of one possible sort of Taoist belief.

 

But let me point out two mistakes YOU stated.

 

First off, You quoted LIBob again. LIBob said "No god is above "the way".."

 

And if you quote more of it:

"no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist."

 

He did not that they did not believe in a god, just that he/she/it wasn't above "the way" .

 

Looks to me like he was saying "no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist" in that last part.

 

Or I can make it easier for you" "The way"is higher than god.

 

But you're ignoring that bit about "no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist."

 

Secondly, you keep refering to a westernsense of god as a standard of religion for the BSA that the DRP specificaly does not state.

 

I'm not defining god in any sense; I'm just saying that atheists don't meet the BSA's membership standards. BSA officials certainly say that often enough.