Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?

[BadenP]

pack

 

What OGE stated is correct. Scouts Own is supposed to be an all inclusive, non denominational service giving reverence to what each scout holds to be that higher power associated with their particular faith. If all your camp services are just Christian only in its orientation and content then you do a great disservice to all those non Christian scouts in your units. Just because attendance is voluntary does not negate that disservice.

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

The BSA makes a statement of its belief - it does not mention atheists or attack them in anyway. It does not defame them. Howeever, your inflammatory rhetoric does so to the BSA which is merely exercising its' constitutional right of free expression. Did you leave Cub Scouting because you were an atheist and felt unwelcome? Did you leave Cub Scouting for some other reason?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter, the BSA states who can be the best kinds of citizens, and atheists can't be in that set. I consider that denigration towards atheists.

 

The BSA has first amendment rights, and so do I. I can certainly use my rights to criticize how the BSA uses its rights.

[Kahuna]

As regards Taoist, Buddhist or boys from other Eastern religions attending "Scouts Own" services, whether they are Christian based or not, I think their reaction would be that they would prefer to be out in the woods alone, meditating. I doubt they would be offended, unless they are very new to the West, because in most places they will have been exposed to Western religious views. They may not understand those views, but they would at least know they have to endure a certain amount of it. The concept of "worship" is foreign to these religions and, as mentioned before, the concept of a deity is not a central part of their program.

 

Most westerners, raised in this Christian culture are not really very well equipped to deal with the concepts of Eastern religions.

 

Regarding this discussion in general, you should all refrain from interacting with Merlyn, who so far has added nothing at all to the initial question of Taoist Scouts.

[packsaddle]

OGE, yeah I understood what you meant but it was a way to emphasize that in other areas, these services are sometimes weighted toward the majority faith...not a shock to anyone's intuition, I hope.

 

Kahuna wrote, "They may not understand those views, but they would at least know they have to endure a certain amount of it."

I agree. This fact is not exactly a good thing. I also consider the woods to be a superior venue.

BadenP wrote,

"If all your camp services are just Christian only in its orientation and content then you do a great disservice to all those non Christian scouts in your units."

I also agree.

These camp services are not mine but rather organized by the camp. I think I've noted before in older threads, that this unit has rarely chosen to have unit-level religious services (outside of Scout Sunday at the CO), partly because we do have a diverse group of boys.

With regard to the generic service idea, I'm not even sure that there CAN be a religious service that is truly neutral and as someone else noted, if there was such a thing, THAT would probably cause concern for some people.

With regard to the 'opt-out' approach. In my opinion if such an option is open to one or a few boys, then that option should be open to all of them. And in a boy-led unit, if the boys decide as a group to exercise the option not to attend a camp religious service in favor of some other activity, I support their decision.

[John-in-KC]

Kahuna,

 

You've said much of value in your last post.

 

I'd far rather each Scout come with a prayer book/pocket testament (or equivalent) and spend 15 minutes reading about his God in the silence of the forest, rather than suffer another "Scout Law as Theology" Scouts Own as is published by the National Council (I found a couple out on the OA Lodge Leadership Development Conference website, and I took ill reading them).

 

As I read Scoutings materials, I'm reminded there is a reason Chaplaincy is left to adults, and youth members are to be Aides in the PORs: Their faith is still forming. Our duty as Scouters is to provide an environment which supports the family in its decisions of how faith will work itself out.

 

For those of you who've been to Philmont or PTC, and who know Pastor Gordon Gross, he's the clergyman who has helped me gel my views on matters of faith these past 8 years or so.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Kahuna writes:

Regarding this discussion in general, you should all refrain from interacting with Merlyn, who so far has added nothing at all to the initial question of Taoist Scouts.

 

I'd like to point out that only the BSA gets these kinds of insanely stupid questions in the first place; nobody asks if Taoists can join Campfire Boys & Girls because only the BSA is known to exclude people based on their religious views. It's less than a non-issue anywhere else.

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn,

You ever consider that it's not a club of scouting people who exclude athiests, but rather a club of people who believe in a god who like scouting stuff?

 

Isn't that the nature of all clubs? Corvette clubs do not exclude other cars..it's a club for people who like corvettes instead of other cars.

 

Even AA wasn't intended as an exclude "whoever" group. Rather, it is a club of people who have the same opinion or view.

 

 

 

[SSScout]

"Faith, Religion and Chaplaincy" thread, anyone?

 

As I have shared in anecdotal form before, I think most folks join Scouting and then self select out when they discover the more overt religiousity of our organization. I know most kids when they join certainly don't give it a thought. Camp, hike, fire cooking, fun, nature study maybe, that's what they join for, not theology. Late night tent conversations, campfire bull sessions, that's when the BIGGER things come up, that's when the adults and the older Scouts start thinking about can they truely promise a"...duty to God" and what does that mean?

Some will see the connection to the faith of their family, some will deny it (whether they are aware of it or not, ALL parents give their children something to either rebel against or accept, after all), some will be drawn to another faith, and some will find no reason for any faith at all. These last will either keep it to themselves, or raise hue and cry about it, or quietly drop out or resign. Again, I do not feel it is our place, as Scout leaders, to actively seek out the doubters and force their issue. Our personal example and directing their attention to the Scout promise and Law should be sufficient.

 

Now as to " Scout's Own"...

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

You ever consider that it's not a club of scouting people who exclude athiests, but rather a club of people who believe in a god who like scouting stuff?

 

Isn't that the nature of all clubs? Corvette clubs do not exclude other cars..it's a club for people who like corvettes instead of other cars.

 

I think a closer analogy would be a car club that prohibited leaders from advocating their favorite cars, and instead left that up to the kid's family & dealership -- and then kicked out kids who don't have cars. And had pointless discussions on what sort of vehicles qualify as cars or not-cars, so there'd be some kind of way to determine if a kid had an "acceptable" car or not. And the club never did anything that actually required owning a car, since all the car-connected activities are optional. And said only members who own cars can be the best kinds of citizens.

[GernBlansten]

I think Merlyn nailed in on the car analogy. Dead on.

[jhankins]

I was going through my WB21 syllabus (oh noes! I said WB21!), and was reading the interfaith worship information.

 

Taoism is one of the largest religions in the world -- one of the big 8. BSA recognizes Taoism as a religion, however they haven't met the qualifications to have a religious award.

 

The qualifications:

 

1) Write your own material for each age group of Scouting, have it approved by the religious relations committee at National.

 

2) Charter 25 units (country wide)

[ScoutNut]

>>"however they haven't met the qualifications to have a religious award."

[Beavah]

And for all of that, it would still be a car club, and it would still be OK for them to not accept those who didn't like cars and wanted to spend time talking about how cars were stupid and unnecessary and harmful to the environment. While still accepting young folks who were thinking of possibly getting a car, or at least were politely agreeable to car talk.

 

A union picnic doesn't have any union purpose beyond fellowship with like minded union families. But even though there is no overt union activity at the picnic, or it's an optional meeting on the side, doesn't mean it's wrong for participation to be limited to those who share a viewpoint. Folks who share viewpoints like to hang out together sometimes, whether it's picnicking or doing scouty stuff. Not welcoming anti-union politicos to the union picnic isn't a bad thing, even if there is no overt union activity at the picnic.

 

Beavah

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

While still accepting young folks who were thinking of possibly getting a car,

 

Which doesn't match their stated policy of not accepting kids without cars, nor their court battles where they stated that kids without cars can't join.

 

or at least were politely agreeable to car talk.

 

Which doesn't match their stated policy in any way, shape, or form, as you need to have a car, not be open to "car talk."

 

But that would match how local units bend the rules (depending on how much they feel like bending them) and try to pretend that they really aren't discriminating against kids without cars.