Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?

[LIBob]

Serious question

 

I am very active in the local Asian American community (my wife is from Taiwan.) and so I know dozens (hundreds??) of Asian American families of various religions and beleif systems.

 

One of the families that my family considers among our closest friends inquired about having their son joins boy scouts.

 

The thing is, there are many types of Taoism.

Some schools can be described only as monotheistic, some worship a trinity, others a pantheon and others believe that since no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist.

 

The "church" to which my friends belong, recognizes that there are so few Taoists in America they cannot "afford to" discriminate. In order to provide a place for many types of Taoists to come together they avoid mentioning matters of theism (which tend to divide Taoists) and instead focus on the principals and beliefs (philosophy) their entire community shares.

 

Anyway

My family is planning a 5-mile hike with theirs tomorrow. Three weeks from now, my family will join their "church" on a weekend camping trip. I'm sure the topic of scouting will come up

 

I'd like to get some honest input. If I encourage them to put their son in scouts will there be some time in the future when they feel "BSA doesn't want us?"

[Kahuna]

Speaking as a Buddhist, I'd say if we can join, they can join, provided they can in good conscience say the Oath and Law. We have almost the same theological viewpoint regarding a supreme being.

[Scoutfish]

From my standpoint...there isn't a problem.

 

Granted, I do not have a written copy of National's view on this particular subject, but I'm most don'teither.

 

The thing is, BSA wants you to recognize some form of a higher power or god and at the very least something above yourself , which can be also called a deity.

 

Deity: (from Wikipedia)

 

A deity[ is a postulated preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often called in some religions as a god.

 

I want to stress the part: " often called in SOME religions as a god."

 

Not all religions, but some. Many of ours included.

 

But who are we to difine what another religion considers a god?

 

 

So, depending on which group or sect of taoism that this families follows, they may have either a barely there deity( god) or a high recogniton of a deity(s)/god(s:

 

 

Tree Pure Ones Yu Huang Guan Shengdi Eight Immortals Yellow Emperor Xiwangmu Jade Emperor Chang'e etc....

 

Bhuddism, Hinduism, and a few other religions do not view a god as we do, but do recognize then in their own way.

 

BSA allows / recognizes this and that meets the criteria.

 

So, Taoists should be fine(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[shortridge]

"Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?"

 

Absolutely.

 

"... will there be some time in the future when they feel 'BSA doesn't want us?' "

 

Possibly, as there could be with a Scout of any faith or background. But generally, as long as a Scout can affirm that he "will do [his] best to do [his] duty to God," however he and his family define that term, he is welcome.

 

And there is plenty of flexibility. Buddhists, for example, do not necessarily believe in "God" as the Judeo-Christian faiths do. But there are plenty of Buddhist Scouts and units chartered to Buddhist organizations.

 

The biggest challenge to this family will likely be from adult leaders who mistakenly believe that one must subscribe to a Judeo-Christian belief system to be a Scout. There may be some sticky moments, particularly at camp, on the Scout Sabbath, etc. But it's nothing that can't be dealt with with some preemptive education and the careful selection of a good local unit.

 

Your description of the Taoist church reminds me a lot of Scouting. Some selective editing, and you can see the parallels: "In order to provide a place for many types of Scouts to come together they avoid mentioning matters of theism (which tend to divide Scouts) and instead focus on the principals and beliefs (philosophy) their entire community shares."

 

Encourage them to explore Scouting as an option for their son, reviewing the Oath and Law and having some frank discussions. The Declaration of Religious Principle would also be worthwhie to review. To me, the last two sentences are the most pertinent.

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Doesn't sound much different than any unit that has members made up of LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Pres, AME, Anglican, Protestsnt..etc..

groups.

 

That's the reason that most scout reverances are so generic and "middle of the road" . You don't want to push one over another or alienate one religion in support of anothr.

 

And by mentioning LDS, I'm talking about a kid or two who might not have a LDS church or unit close by, so they join the next best thing - yours!

 

America might be (overall) a very religious nation, but we are also a nation that is divided into different sects or groups by individual

religion too. No, we are not at war witheach other, but we don't exactly give any ground when it comes to religion either!

[LIBob]

I thank you all sincerely for your replies.

 

The reason I started the thread is because I read somewhere that BSA is less inclusive than world scouting, and specifically disallows any boy who does not profess belief in a single monotheistic God.

[ghermanno]

LIBob,

 

"In order to provide a place for many types of Taoists to come together they avoid mentioning matters of theism (which tend to divide Taoists) and instead focus on the principals and beliefs (philosophy) their entire community shares." & "I'd like to get some honest input. If I encourage them to put their son in scouts will there be some time in the future when they feel "BSA doesn't want us?" "

 

Well, to be truthfull, the BSA does want them. The boys will have to understand that some people within the Council/District/Unit may have strong Judeo-Christian sects that will state at meetings thier beliefs. It can be difficult for people when the District ends all prayers with "we ask this in Jesus name" and you are not christian but that should be about the end of it.

 

If the boys/parents can put up with that, or find a Unit that doesn't do that, they should be fine. As families and as Scouts/Scouters.

 

Welcome.

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

Rick

[ScoutNut]

>>"The reason I started the thread is because I read somewhere that BSA is less inclusive than world scouting, and specifically disallows any boy who does not profess belief in a single monotheistic God."

[SSScout]

"We really do need a Faith,Religion and Chaplaincy forum."

 

The answer to your titled question, as has been previously enthusiastically stated, is YES.

The diversity of faith in Scouting is, some other's opinions not withstanding, truly one of it's strengths. In few places can a boy (or any child, or person) expect to meet folks of such diverse culture and belief, all included by a love and loyalty to two things:

The Scout Promise (or Oath) and the Scout Law.

 

My advice to you is to approach the Taoist temple/church and offer to help them charter a Scout unit. Cub Pack, Boy Troop, matters not. I know a Viet Namese community in Virginia that includes Catholics, Buddhist, and Taoist families. They have several active Scout units. It works because they see the value of the Scout program.

Unfortunately, I have more than once had to disabuse a Scout leader of the opinion that Scouting is inherently Christian. No, it isn't.

Altho it is not "official" BSA policy/dogma, I still like to refer to The Founder's instructions in this regard:

 

"Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."

 

=Robert Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership

 

If the definition of "God" is the sticking point, I must leave that to the adherent; I will not attempt to define or judge them as to their suitability for Scouting. My job is to teach Scouting, not religion.

 

Welcome to the ecampfire, again. Come back as often as you need, to refresh yourself.

YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[LIBob]

Scoutnut wrote:

Really? Where did you read that? I would bet big bucks it was NOT in any BSA publication.

 

Are you (or the author of the pronouncement you read "somewhere") well versed on the policies of all the Scouting organizations that make up "world scouting"?

 

I am not sure where I originally read it. I am sure it was one like this (politically charged anti-scouting site)

http://www.lava.net/~hcssc/boyscouts.html

which claims The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) openly discriminates against atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists. The BSA also practices discrimination against students, parents, and teachers who follow the tenets of Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shintoism, Unitarian Universalism, and other religions that do not acknowledge the idea of "God." The vast majority of Hawaii residents do not subscribe to any belief in the idea of a "supreme deity." All Boy Scouts are required to "to do my duty to God."

Parents of Boy Scouts are required to sign a "Declaration of Religious Principles" which states "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.

Normally I am dismissive of such politically driven drivel. However I noticed something about Scoutings religious awards that made me think perhaps there was and is a grain of truth to what that site claimed, and that is why I felt it prudent to post this thread.

 

So far every response has been either

Yes Taoist boys are welcome.

Or Taoist boys are welcome but they may encounter experiences which might . . . .

And so that is what I believe.

 

(My thoughts on BSAs religious awards to follow shortly.)

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

ScoutNut writes:

>>"The reason I started the thread is because I read somewhere that BSA is less inclusive than world scouting, and specifically disallows any boy who does not profess belief in a single monotheistic God."

[LIBob]

My thoughts on BSA religious awards (and how they relate to Taoism.)

 

Travel to Asia, (I have), and talk to a dozen or so Buddhists (I have done that as well).

- You will soon find that some Buddhists believe that Siddhartha, who became Buddha is one God among many. (some Buddhists are polytheists)

- You will find others who believe Siddhartha, who became Buddha is the only God and the other so-called gods are, in the western sense, more like saints and angels. (some are monotheists)

- Others believe that Siddhartha-cum-Buddha is the only supreme god but he had three (or eight) major incarnations. (worship a trinity.)

- You will find others who say Siddhartha was simply a great philosopher and truth-seer but not a god and no god in the Abrahamic sense exists. (Buddhists can also be Atheists.)

 

IOW some Buddhists are atheists, some are monotheists, some are polytheists. (YET) BSA has a series of religious awards a Buddhist scout can earn.

 

Taoism is a lot like that. I do not wish to go into too much detail, but the above are some of the features Taoism shares with Buddhism. According to wiki, Taoism has 400 million world-wide practitioners.) yet BSA has not religious award series for Taoists.

 

Perhaps some influential person in Irving TX believes "Buddhists are theists and Taoists are Atheists." I dunno, such a 9wrong) belief would not be the weirdest belief to ever come out of Texas.

 

 

By contrast:

(AndI have nothing against Zoroastrianism, but,) if Wiki has it right, there are (only) some 70,000 Zoroastrians in the world, (not enough to fill every seat in a Big-10 football stadium). A small fraction of them live in the United States.

 

There are fewer than 7.000 worldwide adherents to the General Church of the New Jerusalem, in the entire world. Yet BSA has a series of religious wards set up for them as well.

 

Meher Babar(ism) strikes me as a religion with relatively few adherents, yet BSA has a series of religious awards for them as well. (No offense intended to Meher Barbar practitioners).

 

.

.

.

.

So if 400 million people (worldwide) practice Taoism, and relatively few practitioners of Zoroastrianism, Meher Barbar(ism) etc. I have to wonder if the lack of a Taoist religious award series was merely an oversight.

 

Naturally I think perhaps BSA does not welcome Taoists.

 

Anyway, the insight and opinions of "real live" scouters means a LOT to me on this issue and I again thank you for your replies

[LIBob]

Hey merlyn how's it going?

 

Your input is also welcome here but as I am relatively new to scouter.com it might help me if you could pin your advice to your own experiences in scouting.

 

My own opinion is that since BSA includes Zoroastriansim and Meher Barbar(ism) among its religious awards, but excludes Taoism among its religious awards, then perhaps some powerful guy in Texas has made certain, unsophisticated provincialish judgements about Taoism and God.

 

The many comments from active socuters on this forum have already convinced me that either

a. that is not the case and I have misinterpreted.

or

b. that is the case, but so long as the troop leader does not share that provincial and unworldly view then it will not be an issue.

 

 

I DO appreciate your input, but insofar as

- this is an "honest question" thread and

- your views seem to be in the minority,

the burden of proof on you is kind of a heavy one.

 

Still, please feel free to continue.

[DeaconLance]

BSA Religious Principles

(Reprinted from the 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions.)

 

The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America:

 

1. Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.

 

2. Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association.

 

3. Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices.

 

4. If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations.

Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

 

[Scoutfish]

LIBob, I think you answered your own question as to why there isn't an award for Taoism:

 

 

 

Taoism is a single line of thought or an agreed upon line of thinking any more than Christianity is. Sure , many Christians, but then you break them down to diffent sects or denominations.

 

The difference being they do have names such as Methodist, Catholic, Baptist,etc.

 

From what I read about Taoists, they are all Taoists , but under many different beliefs that are not similar in nature.

 

Additionally, you also said "The "church" to which my friends belong, recognizes that there are so few Taoists in America ....."

 

So how many are scouts or have been scouts?

 

Not placing blame or burden on the Taoists, but fror the sake of arguement, if no Taoist ever joined BSA before...that can explain why there is no religious award for them. Know what I mean?