Spinoff: Homosexual Scouts

[evmori]

Belief an opinion? So your lack of belief in God is just an opinion, Merlyn?

[packsaddle]

Ed, yes, a belief and an opinion are basically the same thing.

As I've posted in the past, hell is a myth and Satan (whatever name) does not exist, also a myth. There is no positive evidence for the existence of either of them.

 

Moosetracker, I'm curious as to why 9/11 affected your faith in any way? What about 9/11 raised questions in your mind, questions that can't be asked for any other human-caused tragedy? Actually, my question applies to 'natural' catastrophes as well.

 

I add that the only time I have had a scout 'grilled' about his faith was by a district Eagle coordinator/advancement person who had a different faith. When he learned the faith of the scout, the district person proceeded to hold an inquisition. He is no longer serving in that capacity.

 

So....someone help me connect all this to the thread topic on homosexual scouts?????

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, like packsaddle said, belief and opinion mean about the same thing. And if my lack of a belief in a god wasn't an opinion (or lack of opinion), I really don't know what you'd classify it as.

[sherminator505]

Sorry, packsaddle. I guess the original premise of this thread was so baseless that it either had to die with a whimper or get sidetracked by Merlyn, Ed, and (I hate to say it) myself.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[sherminator505]

"And if my lack of a belief in a god wasn't AN OPINION (OR LACK OF OPINION), I really don't know what you'd classify it as."

 

Caps added for emphasis.

[GernBlansten]

I think Merlyn's point is that lack of belief is not a belief.

[evmori]

Sounds like spin time! If a belief and opinion are the same thing then believing there is no God is an opinion.

[sherminator505]

Look at the part of the quote in caps. Carefully. Now, what does it tell you?(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Sounds like spin time! If a belief and opinion are the same thing then believing there is no God is an opinion.

 

You're the only one spinning, Ed. If belief and opinion aren't the same thing, what's the distinction between them?

 

Also note that arguments over whether "I believe that not-X" is the same as "I do not believe X" is not relevant to whether belief and opinion are synonyms or not.

[OldGreyEagle]

ah, but then again, what is reality? Just because we think, does that mean we are?

 

Can anyone ever hold any belief that is not just "their opinion"? Early on we "knew" the Earth was the center of the Universe. That truth was incorrect. The Earth was known to be flat, we now know that the Earth is a sphere, (well not a real sphere, more of an Oblate but I digress)

 

How are we assured that anything we "know" is actually reality? We don't, we just look for others who beleive in the same reality we do and try to muzzle those whose view of reality disturbs our reality.

 

So, the only thing I know is I yam what I yam and thats all that I yam

[moosetracker]

Natural Catastophes I believe are part of the design of Gods will. Even those natural disastors born out of our own distruction of the earth's resources.. Too deep an issue to get into. But, I don't think a single group of people are purposely destroying the earth in order to convert us all to their opinion of something.

 

9/11 was the cause of people who hijacked a perfectly peaceful faith for their own cause, and added thier own interpretation of what Quran, ignored parts, over emphisised parts. In order to form an army of warriors bent on the fact that their god wanted to do battle with their enemy. Of those who follow the religion as intended, I have no issue.. Of those who hijacked the religion there is a group of manipulators and a group of manipulated.

 

Throughout history there have been many wars, and many religious cults large and small used to manipulate people to others agenda. I knew about them but 9/11 hit me smack in the face. I started looking at all the different religions and faiths and how everyone takes the Historic facts and put their own spin on things, their interpretations, their opinions.. The Bible is someones interpretation of history or the holy word.. Each different religious book is an interpretion from someone trying to decipher what was meant.. These interpreters may have been, good well intended people, but still it is their interpretation. Each church that follows any holy book, has their beliefs based on this book, but someone interpreted this book differently. Protestant, Catholic, Episcopalians all follow the Bible but with different interpretations. Then within each faith, each minister, Preist or Bible study class then reinterprets what they think the bible is saying.. By the time you hear the word it has been re-interpreted so many times, what you are hearing is very watered down.

 

Most religious faiths are good, they are trying to follow a faith that is allowing people to lead a good wholesome life to self and others. All good. But, my belief in organized religion has been shaken that I don't know what is real, and what is man-made.

 

I believe in a higher being, I believe in a soul that remains after the body perishes. I believe that what you do on earth counts in the afterlife somehow.

 

I believe because these are ingrained in my inner being, my soul, I cannot interpret the world without these beliefs.. After that, I don't know what is truely real and what is man-made religion. And I don't really want anyone trying to tell me based on their interpretation either.

[packsaddle]

Moosetracker, thank you for your sincere thoughts. I have another question. Do you think that something that is man-made is not real?

[moosetracker]

Man-made in objects is real in the sense of it takes up space, you can hold it.. In ideas it's real in a sense of what changes it brings to a person personally or a group of people, or society, or a nation.

 

In religion, it has the same effect as any other type of idea it can organize a group of people. Does that belief in an idea make it real? No.. Could you possibly have the right of it, maybe.

 

Example : Belief in heaven & hell helps organize people to live a better life.. Is heaven or hell really there with angels & devils? That is up to you to decide. Is it just symbolism or a concrete place somewhere? Whatever.. All I know is those who truely believe in a heaven & hell did not make the place come into existance. Heaven & hell is not man-made based on people believing it so. It either is or it isn't..

 

We know from science Earth wasn't created in 7 days, but the order of things was fairly accurate.. Symbolism mixed with some surprising accuracy. Interpretation of how this came to be written and what was meant when written, within your faith may make it real to you if you believe. But, your belief will not change history.. history that old is just lost and subject to interpretations. But, the true history has not been altered in anyway to make your belief real. You might be right, you might not be.

 

I definately don't believe that one religion is the only religion that will go to heaven, and anyone who doesn't believe in it will go to hell. Some religions believe this. Does this belief make it real? Let's hope not for the 99% of the population that do not follow that religious belief.

 

[Scoutfish]

WOW! Mosetracker, we think a lot alike. A whole lot alike!

 

I have been labeled as "anti- religious" in the past. I have been labeled by the "Knock on your door then knock on your morals" traveling missionaries who pretty much looked at me like scum when I did not follow their system of beliefs.

 

To behonest,. I look forward to the occasional traveling religious salesman. I'll argue religion all day long and have fun.

 

About 3 years ago, I had some 17 or 18 year old boys stop by the house and conducting their own inquisition of my beliefs.

 

So when they asked me what I believed, I told them. And told them, and told them more. 1 hour later, the "leader" of the 3 boys was tugging at his collar and asking if they could come back. Another was just mad because I didn't tell him his beliefs in my voice. The 3rd actually said something about listening to some more of what I was saying .....until the other two cut him "one of those" looks!

 

So anyways, I do not have an issue with God or religion, but I do not feel the need to waste my time joining a club of people who take religion and make a social club or power and control committee out of it.

 

 

 

Incidentally packsaddle....."So....someone help me connect all this to the thread topic on homosexual scouts"

 

I'd say that the implication is that a scout who claimes to be homosexual cannot be religios or believe in a "god" as requested/required by BSA.

 

I also think this is a bunch of crap (The implication - not BSA's rule) as that is a condition lent by individuals who's own religious beliefs say a gay person cannot believe or be moral...and has absolutely nothing to do with the actual homosexual scout's beliefs, thoughts or feelings.

 

But that is an arguement for another thread.

[GernBlansten]

Scoutfish, you bring back fond memories.

I rebuild classic VWs. When I'm working on my cars, I leave the garage doors open and play classic rock music from the HIFI.

One beautiful Saturday recently, two very nice young men in white shirts, ties and day packs strolled up my driveway to discuss my salvation. I greeted them with a hardy handshake. I have keen interest in their faith and had many questions I needed answered. They dutifully answered them and we shared some laughs. They then asked if they could help around the house. Well, I was just ready to separate the body of the 72 Karmann Ghia from its pan and surely could use a couple of extra hands. After another hour of spirited spiritual banter and tugging on the body, we separated the two parts, laid the body on the ground and exposed the glory of German engineering. Needless to say the two young men no longer had white shirts, but we did enjoy our discussion and they left me some literature on their faith. We bid farewell with invitations to come on back and help me reassemble the beast on a latter day.

 

I do enjoy when people visit.