Spinoff: Homosexual Scouts

[sherminator505]

I'm not saying that you invented "Deists," but you do seem at once comfortable with manipulating the construct of your "Deist" to serve your intellectual arguments and utterly unable to apply that construct to a living, breathing "Deist."

 

You say that a "Deist" could have no duty to God and still be acceptable under BSA policy (note that I did say COULD) but you cannot cite a living, breathing example of this. So while you may attempt to use rhetorical devices to portray me as the one twisting your arguments, I would only say that your arguments seem to have twisted themselves!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm not saying that you invented "Deists," but you do seem at once comfortable with manipulating the construct of your "Deist" to serve your intellectual arguments and utterly unable to apply that construct to a living, breathing "Deist."

 

So what? Are you claiming such people don't exist?

 

You say that a "Deist" could have no duty to God and still be acceptable under BSA policy (note that I did say COULD) but you cannot cite a living, breathing example of this.

 

And why is that relevant? If a public school had a policy that no Australian aboriginals could be admitted, that would be racial discrimination even if no aboriginals lived in the school district. I'm talking about the implications of the policy, not whether or not there happen to be any real-life examples right this minute.

 

So while you may attempt to use rhetorical devices to portray me as the one twisting your arguments, I would only say that your arguments seem to have twisted themselves!

 

No, I don't use "rhetorical devices" to portray you as twisting my arguments, I show, directly, how your description of my statements are not the same as the statements I actually made.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I don't know Meryln personally nor he knows me, except for this forum. I am a Deist. There are many like us. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. We are also known as the un-churched. But we are not athiests in the traditional sense.

 

I do have difficulty with the traditional Duty To God part of the oath because my God (or whatever you wish to all it) does not require a duty to serve it personally. However, I and my Eagle scout son, fit within the confines of the BSA DRP because the requirement for faith is so undefined and inconsistently enforced to make it a joke.

 

So what is our duty to God? Since we feel it is all of creation, our duty is to take care of that creation. Some call us environmentalist wackos. Others would say we are just doing our duty. What say you?

 

[Scoutfish]

Gern, what would you call me?

 

Deist is close, but no cigar to my beleifes on it.

 

I have my belief in God, Yet I do not follow "standard" religion as I believe man has corrupted and tainted it for his own purposes soooo many times as to make most religions a "faith based political tool" instead of a real religion.

 

Unlike Deists, I do believe God will step in in certain situations - dpendant on the person's state of mind, need or overall attitude of life. Myself included - ( I was diagnosed with stage III cancer and accepted that I was lucky to have what I already had axcumilated and accopmplished. I felt that I was still lucky compared to many, many peole. Then just like that..I was given a clean bill(( to the Dr's suprise)) of health in a situation that so many are getting worse)

 

Could it be explained logically...sure, I suppose so, but I have a deeper belief something else happend based on my attitude and general morals.

 

So anyways, I can go along with alot of the deist belief system, but not completley.

 

So what would that make me? I haven't heard a name for it yet.

[sherminator505]

Thanks for clearing that up, Gern.

[Scoutfish]

I read a quote not to long ago:

 

"I like God, it's his fans I am not so sure about!"

 

Works for me!

 

 

[GernBlansten]

"I just view Jesus the way I view Elvis. I love the guy, but some of the fan clubs scare me." Fugelsang

 

 

[evmori]

So, people never, ever, change their religious opinions in your world, Ed?

 

Opinion has nothing to do with this.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Opinion has everything to do with this, Ed. Belief (or not) in a god is a person's opinion, and it's quite possible for a scout to be a theist for years and only become an atheist late in scouting, so he wouldn't have been "living a lie" in that case.

[packsaddle]

Scoutfish, you asked what you would be called. Why do you ask that? If someone did apply a label how would you respond? Since you evidently don't have a label in your own mind, I suppose that you might be critical of any label....therefore, why ask for one?

 

Alternatively, you do seem to WANT to have a label. So why not create one for yourself? It might be unique but at least you'll have that label.

[Scoutfish]

I wouldn't call it an opinion. I'd say a belief is something you feel deeply...to your core. It's more than an opinion could ever be.

 

An opinion may change from day to day: Cheeseburgers are the best food ever!" ...until maybe you try a sloppy joe ?

 

But a bielief is something that is *almost* ingrained in an instinctual way.

 

Merlyn: Is atheism your opinion, or something you truely believe/ follow without a doubt? I mean,is it just your opinion until somebody gives a better arguement to sway you, or is it akin to a strait up fact for you? You get what I mean?

 

It could be my opinion that 70 degrees is cold while your opinion is that 70 degrees is hot. Scientifically, 70 degrees is just that: 70 degrees.

 

As far as scouts who change...Yeah, I get that. Some people have things/ events/ life altering "awakenings" to ideas and thoughts that completely change their belief in many things...religion not withstanding.

 

A child could truely have faith in God or it could just be years of mom and dad conditioning it. I knew a many friends who "believed" because "Dad said so!"

 

Given time, maturity and intellectual development, people may reasses their priorities and reconsider what they truely believe vs what mom and dad told them to believe.

 

I agree with Merlyn that a scout could truely have a change in belief and find himself an athiest after years of believing. Likewise, I have known people to change religions, and also to start believing after years of not believing.

 

People evolve, change and reinvent themselves...wether they are aware they are doing it or not.

 

Shoot...just get married and have kids. If that doesn't change your life outlook and priorities...I dojn't know what will!

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Not so much a label...in the sense of creating one, but if one already exists as to my stance concerning religion.

 

JKnow what I mean?

 

I never heard the term "deist" before joining this site. Ignorance or just never coming across it? Beats me, but the fact is, I never heard the term.

 

Labels do not matter to me in the sense I feel the need to belong. I could care less what group I fall under as far as needing to belong or bragging rights, but I am a curious person by nature.

 

I would like to know just for the sake of knowing. It won't change how I think or feel, but I could say: "Cool, I am an "X" " .

[packsaddle]

My wife calls me a 'moron'. So I guess that will have to be, "Cool, I am a moron."

Now, once in a while she calls me a "humorless WASP with thin Nazi lips". And I object strongly...I DO TOO have a sense of humor!

 

OGE, don't even think about it...

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

scoutfish, I'm always ready to consider new evidence and ideas; I've never come across one for gods that was at all convincing.

 

If you want to find terms similar to your beliefs, you can try belief-o-matic

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

[moosetracker]

I did want to add in but was afraid to get into the mist of the arguement, thanks GernBlansten for your input, I think it is now safe to wade into the water.. Hmmm.. The title Homosexual Scouts does not quite fit the turn of this thread.

Anyway.. I know with me 911 changed how I view my faith drastically as it did a friend of mine, we both went in opposite directions. Currently my beliefs are closer to Scoutfish. I might go back to church if I can find one that is does not force man-made rules on you. It is just scary how people can turn religion into their own personal gain or platform and manipulate people.. My friend joined a church, and almost had no life outside of it after 911. I do not appreciate and or I'm uncomfortable with anyone who comes to my door touting their religion, or who constantly work their religion into day to day conversation when it is not appropriate to the conversation at hand, yet I am comfortable discussing religion in an appropriate debate or conversation. My father was a minister, and I have a deep belief in God, and hurt him deeply that I was no longer attended church. Still church attendance, or belonging to a specific religion to me does not mean a lack of faith or the inability to shape your life the way you think god would approve, or a belief that there is something after death (heaven/hell?? reincarnation, floating souls? not sure).

Anyway.. My son had to come to terms with his belief for his EBOR.. He had a hard time preparing and defining his answer. He attended church young, but not when he was older and my quiet acceptance slowly evolved into him not taking the time to think about what his belief system was. When it came for the EBOR, my husband or I (not sure) put down our name as someone stating his belief. Our COR said a parent was not good enough, if you had no church you had to find someone who was a church member to sign off on this, she would be happy to do it, only if our son wrote a report stating his beliefs so she knew that he had some. (Now we probably could have gone elsewhere, but you didnt mess with our COR, and you kind of felt obligated to use her). The report was rejected by her 3 times before accepted, as she made him dig deeper and state feelingx he was uncomfortable with expressing or delving into. In the long run it was good for him, he was comfortable with any question the board asked him on the subject.

But, in the troop I can see him going through and not really having to define his belief.. I dont know if a true card toting atheist can go through Scouts Believing in disbelief.. But I can see other boys going through scouts and not coming to terms with having no belief until the EBOR and having the question asked. Why? Because a lot of troops see respect to various religions as just gently tiptoe around the subject. Reverent in the scout Law is not only faith in your religion but also respecting others religion. In respect, to everyones various beliefs they just dont discuss it. With most troops the closest they come to religion may be an interfaith prayer before dinner, or an Eagle COH, nothing else. Yet other things like Kind, courteous etc.. these parts of the scout law are constantly brought up and discussed, especially when someone is not showing those traits in their behavior. So can a boy start in Boy scouts, change opinions about his religious beliefs and yet stay in scouting and not really come to terms with it and/or its implications to their scouting career until they hit the question at their EBOR? Yes. I think it is very probable.