Homosexual Scouts

[Eagle92]

Yep I read it and Skeptic beat me to point. Jeal is the only one to come to that conclusion, and he used late 20th century thinking and applied it to late 19th early 20th century values. Any good historian knows you cannot do that: take your values and concepts and apply them to the past.

 

Jeal is also the one to comment on the number of letters from a certain young lady that BP kept until his wife destroyed them, she being the jealous type. Jeal also notes that there was at least one marriage proposal, and the rejection devastated BP. Jeal also notes the reaction that BP had in at least one case of a homosexual leader, possibly two (read the book a long time ago for a philosophy paper, don't ask )

 

IMHO Jeal doesn't prove that BP was a repressed homosexual. But thanks for reminding me that Jeal did state that, I forgot about that.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Sounds like there's exactly as much solid evidence that this Eagle scout is gay as there is for B-P then.

[Stosh]

Okay, while not supporting or bashing this particular scout - I have to ask:

 

Who said he was sneaking around behind the scenes?

 

Did he actually come out and say this? Did he specifically tell any of you? When and to who did he confess?

 

>>> The only "proof" I have is his admittance on Facebook, and confirmation from others, including his best friend. All this became "public" after his EBOR. I have no idea who knew what prior to that. The boy has chosen not to discuss this with me and I have not brought up the subject. I was told by his friend that he had gone and checked out whether or not after the EBOR they could take his Eagle back. When he found out that the Council wouldn't, he made his sexual orientation a public issue.

 

Look, This kid may be gay as gay can be...but I have yet to see ANYWHERE that this kid himself said so.

 

>>> As I stated in an earlier post, cut and paste from Facebook walls and private emails is inappropriate. The newspaper is the only public record of the issue.

 

The biggest and most damning proof is what a newpaper writer wrote? A person who's job it is to make any dull story more sensational in order to get ratings which means more fanfare and recognition for the writer ..which means more money!

 

>>> I have learned over the years that even if it's in the media doesn't mean it's true. As a matter of fact, very little of what makes it to the paper is anywhere near the truth. I haven't had a subscription with a newspaper for over 30 years. The article was clipped and given to me by a chose friend of mine who recognized the boy's name from the troop roster.

 

The kid was voted fairy of the ball. WOW! Let's burn him! He attended a gay dance to show support for a friens and was voted (By others mind you) as the ball fairy. Maybe it was an honor bestowed to him because he didn't hide from supporting a friend who was gay . Maybe because he didn't just follow the population who might be scared to let the public see they have a less that "desireable " friend. Because he treated his friend like a friend instead of the latest fashion.

 

>>> The "friend" in the article is not gay and was attending the ball with his gay friend (the Eagle scout). The supportive "friend" is my ASM who is this boy's best friend and the ASM has confirmed the boy is gay and makes no bones about it. The ASM is not gay. The Eagle scout was the one elected as the fairy of the ball. I'm thinking you have misread the article a bit.

 

Again, I'm not judging this boy either way, but seems to me that this very individual ( WHO NEVER SPECIFICALLY SAID HE WAS GAY) ( as of yet) pretty much does show the values of an Eagle and a scout.

He didn't just do what was popular, but stood behind his freind. He was loyal to his friend. He stood up for a friend. He wasn't swayed by popular opinion just because it was the popular thing to do.

 

 

Meanwhile, guess who isn't living the scout way: US! We are tearing this boy a new one based on what? We THINK he might be gay? We decided that he MUST have been sneaking around and planning things behind our backs? Since he did not admit being gay to US , then he lied to us ...instead of us actually considering that it might also mean he might not be gay.

 

>>> I haven't jumped to that conclusion, I haven't discussed it with the boy, I haven't treated him any different than any other boy in the troop. All I asked was if gay adults are not to lead the boys, whether or not gay boys can do so.

 

I have never admitted to being gay..so following some logic in here...I must be lieing about my gayness right? Or....just maybe...possibly....it could be that.....

 

 

I AM NOT GAY!

 

 

So we have the young adult/ teenager wgho supported his friend regardless of what anybody else thought.

 

Then we have a bunch of experienced adult leaders who are judging based on no evidence....just a story that a reporter wrote that implies that a kid "could possibly/ maybe/ might be".....gay?

 

>>> Again read the article and realize it is the boy Nataniel who is gay and is the Eagle scout. The not named "friend" that attended with him is NOT gay is a registered ASM and is an Eagle scout himself.

 

Living the scout ideals indeed!

 

 

Merlyn_LeRoy: No, he has made his sexual orientation a public issue. He has announced it to his friends, joined gay-pride organizations, and discussed it openly on his Facebook wall.

 

What he has announced to his friends is hearsay. That he joined gay-pride organizations, I have no documented proof and it would be inappropriate to cut/paste information from someone's Facebook page in this forum, so one is just going to have to accept the fact that the boy, by self confession, is gay. This is not a court of law, but not much on this forum is documented very well anyway.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[NJCubScouter]

Jblake, I think you have shown incredibly poor judgment by posting a link to the article which identifies this young man by name, and then also making statements about other things that you say he has done. The link the article by itself wouldn't be so bad, since it has already been in a public newspaper and on the Internet (which shows poor judgment by the writer of the article.) Your other statements wouldn't be so bad, IF there was no association with the young man's name. Together, there is a big problem. You have published private information about an identified youth member on the Internet. If I were in your unit or council, I wouldn't be looking at this young man, so much as looking at you to determine whether some action needed to be taken.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

he has made his sexual orientation a public issue.

 

I disagree:

 

He has announced it to his friends

 

Telling your friends anything isn't a public issue, that's a private issue. I tell my friends things that I don't announce to the world.

 

joined gay-pride organizations

 

You don't have to be gay to join gay pride organizations.

 

and discussed it openly on his Facebook wall.

 

Which (depending on his privacy settings and/or what arbitrary global privacy settings Facebook has this week) may well only be visible to people he has acknowledged as friends, so again it wouldn't be a public announcement, it would be a private message limited to personal friends of his.

[Eagle92]

Merly,

I must respectfully disagree on the Facebook question. I know of instances in which potential employers have used it, and other social media in the hiring process. heck I know of one young lady who uses the net for potential suitors. If its on the 'net, its public.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Like I said, it depends on what his facebook settings are; he could have it set so people not on his friends list can't see it.

[evmori]

There goes Merlyn again! Perspective!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

What are you talking about, Ed?

[John-in-KC]

There is a tremendous amount of emotional energy being spent right now.

 

The young man is an Eagle. You cannot take that away from him. I've never known of a National revocation of rank.

 

If the young man is worth investing time, energy, and care into, then do it. Keep him as a youth member.

 

If, in your evaluation, the young man has learned everything you have to offer, thank him for his years of learning in your Troop, and show him the door.

 

I really hope you make the former choice.

[Stosh]

Well, the only thing I was unsure of was the fact that I would be encouraging him to work on his leadership and stick with the troop as I did before he made all these announcements. He continues to come on a regular basis to the meetings but I'm thinking that might end once he goes through his ECOH. He is the only boy in the troop who is not signed up for summer camp in July, so I'm thinking I'm not going to see much of him after that.

 

I spend all my time preparing boys to become useful, mature citizens and as a side note, capable to continuing that process as a SM or ASM. It would be kind of misleading on my part if he wished to continue in scouting that there might be some place for him and yet when he turned 18 he couldn't continue.

 

As far as his boy staying or leaving it is entirely up to him. I don't make decisions for my boys, they all make their own within the rules passed down by BSA. I just didn't know what those rules might be in this case.

 

I really don't see it as my problem at all. I just didn't want to make any more problems for the boy than those he was garnering for himself.

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC]

Stosh,

 

Then tell him at 18, unless he joins Venturing, he is most likely finished with BSA.

[packsaddle]

The House just voted to end the ban on gays serving openly in the military. Sad that BSA is going to bring up the tail end of things on this. But it will happen in spite of the prejudice.

To me the irony is that so many who profess on some religious basis to open their hearts to others and see them as they see themselves, choose to view gays through the view of some kind of prurient evil, thus allowing condemnation or condescension but definitely a desire to root gays out and reject them as members...on that same religious basis.

It seems impossible for these individuals to understand that gay persons are much the same as everyone else, sincerely caring for and loving others with the difference of being drawn toward the same gender. To me it says more about those who are doing the judging that they condemn gays through some kind of view of personal perverted revulsion, a view that must be deeply rooted in their own minds and NOT necessarily in the minds of most of those who they condemn on that basis....because of religion.

 

BSA will indeed change eventually, as Trevorum noted a while back in 'The times they are changing', as the minds of those who condemn begin to open and homophobia recedes into that cesspool with its likeness in racial hatred and other evils.

[Scoutfish]

Stosh, I wasn't replying to you specifically when I made my post, just to everybody in general.

 

 

You do have some inside/ access to extra info we didn't.

 

 

Some of the members responding to this post convicted this scout without having that info.

 

That was the point of my post.

 

I understand the question in your original post and ......of course, like usual, the thread somehow started turning into another discussion.

 

Anyways, the proof may be there now , but this scout was judged by quite a few before that info came to light. And so far, at least in a legal way, it would still be considered hearsay as I wouyld bet my paycheck most of the other posters did not even bother to look at the facebook stuff before using it to confirm what they previously decided!

[evmori]

What I mean, Merlyn, is your perspective on not having any facts regarding this Scout. Interesting.