Homosexual Scouts

[LIBob]

Heres my 2-cents.

 

Imagine a heterosexual scout is sexually active and proud of it.

Imagine he comports himself in such a way that every scout he encounter soon learns Eagle Scout X likes sleeping around and if you think hes cool you should too.

 

I am sure somewhere in the rules there is a way the SM can tell him to put a sock in it, and can separate him from the troop if he steadfastly refused to do so.

 

If a scout is gay on his own time, or scout is a (hetero) Casanova on his own time then that is up to him. However his private habits should remain private, scouting is not an opportunity for him to make implicit boasts about his outside endeavors. Nor should it be a platform for him to foist his own personal view of morality on other scouts.

 

 

Gay or straight if he cannot shut up about his personal preferences he should be banned from access to the troop.

 

There. I have given the correct answer. Thread over (jk)

 

[Trevorum]

I overhear a young fellow say something like, "Wow! Look at that really hot girl! I wish I had enough courage to ask her out on a date!" By your logic LBob, I should ban him from our troop becuse he has let slip that he is attracted to girls??? That makes no sense at all.

[LIBob]

Well that's not what I meant.

 

 

If you want to go that deeply into it then I suppose I should add that scouting is many things but it is not a vehicle for social change.

 

You will notice for example that neither the citizenship in the nation MB nor any related merit badge ever adopted a diversity requirement or a "same drinking fountains" requirement, and it sat out the entire civil rights era.

 

If a scout is gay he should keep it to himself.

If a scout is straight but sleeping around with a different woman every weekend he should keep it to himself.

 

I don't make up the socially imposed definitions of "morally straight" but thems what they are.

 

Walk into any, HS, Dilbert office or auto repair shop in America and the rules are

1. It's okay for a guy to say "That girl is hot. I'd like to date her."

2. It's not okay for a guy to say the same thing about a man.

3. it's not okay for a guy to talk about the things he did between the sheets with his GF last weekend.

 

Thems' the rules of polite society.

 

"to keep myself . . morally straight" means just that it does not mean "keep myself on the avant garde of tolerance."

 

It does not mean "to keep myself up to date on the latest fashion trend of sophomore moral trends."

 

Philosophically we could make the case that touching oneself in public, smoking marijuana or eating diner in one's bathing suit is not immoral, but keeping oneself "morally straight" prohibits such avant garde behavior.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

[Trevorum]

Well, I can tell you're not much in favor of any kind of social change and so I won't try to argue with you. However, I would like to point out a few things you might not be aware of.

 

While your are correct that none of the Citizenship MBs have much content about the value of social diversity, this is in fact a major element of Wood Badge training (for adult Scouters). In fact one of the five ticket items is supposed to target diversity.

 

I'm not sure what it's like in your community, but where I am, I would disagree with your point #2. Being gay is no big deal. One of my co-workers expressing that opinion would get no different reaction if he/she were straight or gay. I sorta suspect it'll be like that in your community too, in another 10 or 15 years.

[Trevorum]

and "eating dinner in one's bathing suit" is immoral?? LOL! I can tell you've never lived in a beach community!

[LIBob]

Well I don't know what community you live in, but here on LI if a guy came into work and couldn't shut up about how badly he wanted to date some other guy he would not be taken out and beaten but he would be considered in a negative light. (Much teh same way as some guy who can't stop atlking about all the women he has been wiht.)

 

Whereas discreet gay men and women and discreet Casa Nova types seldom find their lifestyle leads to ill feelings at work.

 

My point is that doing one's best . . . to be morally straight does not mean embracing the latest social norms. Moreover it precludes mean tallking about certain subjecgts, including one's private desires, etc. in certain circles.

 

I don't make the rules, tha say you can't talk about foot fungus in a quiet restaurant, but I know that being morally straight means not talking about such things in such settings.

 

 

 

There is a long list of consensual acts that may harm no one and are perfectly acceptable in certain social circles (walking around naked, smoking pot, stealing from your boss, consensual BDSM . . .) and yet doing one's best to be morally straight precludes discussing them in polite society and in certain circles (including scouting.)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

[LIBob]

MY last post got kinda twisted up.

 

Lemme put it this way.

 

If I'm in a fancy restaurant wiht my son and he wants tosing the diarrhea song, or read me an email list of 101 uses for a dead cat, I would ask him to change the subject and inform him that such talk is inappropriate in some settings.

(Even though there is nothing immoral about diarrhea and the dead cat email is actually funny.)

 

I suspect you would do the same.

 

Certain discussions belong in certain circles and "disbelong" in others. Thems the rules. It is not hateful to understand that, nor bigotted to instill such "don't talk about certain things in cerain places" values in one's child.

 

Scouting is supposed to be about scoutcraft, campcraft etc. It is not a therapy group where kids should talk about private matters nor is it an indoctrination camp whre kids should be taught "the rules agsinst discussing certain things in certain places are oppressive."

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

btw, welcome to the forums

[Scoutfish]

I get what you're saying LIBob!

 

No, I do not want to hear the gay guy at the office talk about all his weekend conquests at the gay bar.

 

BUT I do not want to here about the office studmuffin brag about how many women he conquested this weekend either.

 

I'd tell both of them to shut up!

 

Unless I misunderstand you...that is what you are saying about scouting too: Don't brag about your gay adventures...don't brag about you hetero adventures ..and don't brag about any solo adventures!

 

Talk about sports, weather, MB's, scout stuff, tv shows, the latest video games, newest sports car or whatever...just leave the sex ( straight or gay) talk at home!

[LIBob]

Trevorum wrote:

btw, welcome to the forums

 

thanks Trev.

 

Scoutfish wrote:

I get what you're saying LIBob!

 

No, I do not want to hear the gay guy at the office talk about all his weekend conquests at the gay bar.

 

BUT I do not want to here about the office studmuffin brag about how many women he conquested this weekend either.

 

I'd tell both of them to shut up!

 

 

Yeah that's 99% it.

 

Except that as Trev pointed out, in polite society a guy is allowed to say "She's cute. I'd like to date her,"

Whereas guys are NOT allowed to say the same thing about other guys.

 

I see scouting as a being analogous to polite society. I also seepart of scouting's characters goals as teaching kids how to behave in polite society.

 

In that sense

- I see nothing wrong if a 16-year old eagle scout tells an 11-year-old tenderfoot "She's cute. I'd like to date her."

- But I don't think the 16-year old should say the same thing about guys

-Nor do I think telling the 11-year-old "you have to listen to boys talking about their desire to date boys," should be part of teh 11-year-olds scouting experience.

[evmori]

I don't think it was the post that was twisted LIBob. I think it's the poster.

[packsaddle]

If some guy wanted to call me cute and make a pass, I'd be flattered. Nice to know SOMEONE felt that way! I'd have to let him down easily but since women have never tended to say anything like that, he'd definitely bring a smile to my day.

[CalicoPenn]

Your Honor - I object!!!!

 

"If you want to go that deeply into it then I suppose I should add that scouting is many things but it is not a vehicle for social change."

 

The above statement completely ignores the history of Scouting and the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Baden-Powell founded the Scouting Movement and W.D. Boyce founded the Boy Scouts of America to be vehicles for social change - it was the entire reason that Scouts was created.

 

If, in fact, the Boy Scouts of America is no longer a vehicle for social change, then shame on the current class of professionals and volunteers for turning their backs on the rich history and future potential of the Boy Scouts of America.

[prairie]

C-P,I agree it does feel sometimes like the BSA has ridden the back side of the curve when it could have led, time to spin off another thread?

[Trevorum]

Calico,

you're absolutely correct of course. Time was, when the Boys Scouts was a very "avant garde" organization of social change. ("Gangs of boys leading themselves? Such an idea!") It's a moving target of course, and if the organization (any organization) doesn't move ahead, it will be left behind. That is what seems to have happened with BSA over the course of 100 years. At some point, creeping conservatism took hold of the paid leadership, probably in conjunction with a mis-placed emphasis on numbers and growth, coupled with some very attractive partnerships from conservative religious organizations offering built-in numbers guarantees.