LDS BSA Relationship

[Eagle92]

Baccus,

one thing to add to my summary, b/c I've had mixed interatcions with LDS units.

 

The LDS units with TRAINED (caps for emphasis, not screaming) leaders that I met the "LDS Week" of summercamp were no different than non-LDS units except for the Swim tests monday morning. Ditto for the LDS unit in a district that had their bishop actively involved, i.e. he was the District Chairman. From my expereince, and from the discussions I've had with others, it is the LDS units that are constantly changing leadership and/or not gettinng them to training that causes the challenges.

[OldGreyEagle]

I do beleive one source of issues that LDS scouting has that several non-LDS scouters chafe at is the stance on Homosexual and Atheist Leaders.

 

It has been repeated many times, and I am not sure if it's ever been denied,that if the BSA were to go to the "Local Option", that is, allowing Chartering Organizations to choose the Adult Leadership for their units, thus making possible Homosexual or Atheist Leaders that LDS would withdraw all support and membership of the BSA.

 

If you can refute this, or comfirm it I would appreciate it. While no Atheists or Homosexuals may be supported in the LDS church, there are several Chartering Organizations, which are based on Religion that allow Homosexual Clergy. It may be tough to recruit scouts in a Church where the Pastor cannot meet the membership requirments. If a unit is in a heavily LDS area, I guess I can see it. In the Council I serve there is one, one mind you LDS unit while several churches have dropped charters based on the BSA's discriminatory position on adult leadership. While there is virtually no LDS prescence, they still effect the COuncil's Membership and that is a source of irritation.

 

If I am wrong, then I am wrong and will apologize (unlike some who say they will apologize and then "forget" it when proven wrong)

 

What would happen to the LDS prescense in the BSA if the Local Option were adopted?

[bacchus]

Eagle92, I believed the same thing about LDS adults having too short of tenure. At least until my District Trainer showed me the stats that LDS tenure matched the non-LDS tenure. I understand that could just be a anomaly.

 

OldGreyEagle, We have dealt in other threads with other churches changing their stances to allow their clergy to be homosexual, although I don't think that would apply to atheism. To be honest, I believe BSA has had a policy forever that homosexual and atheist leaders would not be allowed. As to allowing some type of "local option" so other units could pick homosexual and atheist leaders, I don't have the authority to speak for the Church. However, I would personally have issues with sending my own boys to a camp or other activity where I don't know if the leaders have the same morals with which I have tried to raise them.

 

On the other side, you will notice the Church did not drop its support of BSA when the co-ed Venturing program began.

 

"In the Council I serve there is one, one mind you LDS unit while several churches have dropped charters based on the BSA's discriminatory position on adult leadership. While there is virtually no LDS prescence, they still effect the COuncil's Membership and that is a source of irritation."

 

You're telling me that the scouts from the formerly presumed homosexual- and atheist-led units quit scouting altogether instead of transferring?

 

Morality has changed a lot in the last 100 years for some special-interest groups. That does not mean that the BSA needs to lower its standards.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

bacchus writes:

I would personally have issues with sending my own boys to a camp or other activity where I don't know if the leaders have the same morals with which I have tried to raise them.

 

I'd have issues with sending my boys to a camp where the leaders use nicknames taken from, say, the Roman god of intoxication.

[bacchus]

No need to get ad hominem. That is unless I got ad hominem with you. So which are you, homosexual or atheist?

[OldGreyEagle]

heck no, I will try again

 

We have had churches, and they may be just the specific congregations in this area drop charters because of the Homosexual and Atheist Policy that is all. Who said anything about Gay and Atheist led units?

 

You say you don't have authority to speak for the LDS church about any changes to BSA policy and I understand that. But you should know steeped in the Lore and Urban Legends of scouting is a story about how a Representative of the LDS Church told a group of National Professionals that the LDS would withdraw their members and support of the BSA if the Homosexual and Atheist policy ever changed. Have you in LDS scouting heard the same story? I think that one story is the source of a lot of irritation.

 

You said you wouldnt want to be in a camp where other leaders don't share your values. The Troop I serve goes to one of our Council's Camps. This camp will have several Out of Council Troops in it as well as a healthy supply of in Council Troops. I have never bothered to prepare dossiers on all the adults who will be in Camp that week to assure that all will share my same values. In the past I went with the thought if they were in Boy Scout Camp we must be similar enough in values to be togehter for the week of summercamp(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[BadenP]

bacchus

 

IMHO the biggest single issue with LDS scouting is the control and influence they have over National BSA and the program. No one single group should be able to exercise that much influence over any program that claims it is open to all youth of any faith. As I have stated in a previous post, most LDS units in four councils I have been affiliated with are small in size, five being the average, and the fact that the LDS register and pay for all their boys even though only a small percentage even participate just smacks of the "ghost units" that many councils got in trouble over not so long ago.

[bacchus]

OGE, I can't speak for the Church. However, it wouldn't surprise me if they left BSA over such a drastic change in standards of morality.

 

What does that have to do with the way scouting is run in everybody's individual units?

 

BadenP, Let me assure you that we do not have any LDS ghost units here. My follow-up question is if we did have some scouts in name only, who would care? It would seem to me having all the youth registered in any congregation (LDS or not) it just raises the bar to be more inclusive and have a program that everybody will enjoy and attend. A "quality unit" if you will.

[OldGreyEagle]

INDEED!

 

 

What does the manner of adult leader selection of a specific unit have to do with the way scouting is run in everybody's individual units?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm an atheist, bacchus. However, what I wrote wasn't anything like an ad hominem.

[BadenP]

bacchus

 

That's the whole point, It makes a whole lot of difference to claim ghost scouts when you use your grossly overinflated numbers to claim you have more scouts than any other group. In other words it is dishonest, deceitful, and plain immoral. Are those the true tenents of the LDS Church?? If so then the whole LDS scouting program is a sham and National needs to wake up pretty fast. However there is the money issue, the true motivation for National, as long as your religion keeps pumping in all that money every year they will continue to have that power over the BSA. Anyway you look at it it is still dishonest and misrepresentative of the true picture.

[bacchus]

BadenP, so you're the guy running all over town checking each unit to see if they have any scouts on the rolls that don't attend? What makes them a ghost, less than 75% attendance? Less than 50% attendance? Less than 25%? Regardless, I'll assure that the units I'm associated with do not have any of what you consider ghosts. In fact, the lowest attendance rate in my units come from individuals who are non-LDS. Would it fit your scheme a little better if we started dropping the lowest attending youth? That would begin to look a little elitist, which would probably lead to another thread here.

 

OGE, I like your comments about units strengthening relationships with their COs.

[GernBlansten]

I would have more faith in the actual number of youth served by LDS COs if they didn't enroll every youth and pay their membership dues the entire time they are of scouting age. Most non-LDS COs do not do this and every annual re-charter weeds out inactive scouts due to simple economics. If the scout or parent don't pony up the money, the scout is dropped from the charter as COs simply do not have the resources or will to maintain enrollment of an inactive/disinterested non-paying scout.

 

The ghost scout scandals of yesteryear were due to councils keeping inactive/ghost/non-existent scouts and units on the books to overstate their impact on communities for fund raising purposes. This was different in that it was the council doing it, not the CO.

[BadenP]

bacchus

 

After over 25 years as a scouter and constantly going to camp and district and council camporees its not too hard to figure out what a sham LDS scouting really is. LDS troops show up constantly to these events with 5 or 6 scouts even though their SM swears there is 25 in the troop, after 4-5 times you see the pattern quite clearly, and this has been the same in four different councils. Ghost scouts is an UNDERSTATEMENT when it comes to LDS scouting, even many of the LDS scout leaders agree during our crackerbarrels. So bacchus you can brag all you want about LDS scouting but those of us with these shared experiences know the real truth.

[jhankins]

Don't get me wrong here, I support LDS Scouting and wish for it to thrive. I want to see every eligible young man in my district have some sort of contact with Scouting at one point during his life. That's my goal.

 

To that end, I do work with training LDS leaders, serve as a unit commissioner to an LDS Troop and Pack (Because the Team and Crew just don't meet at all, they are with the Troop), and teach classes at Little Philmonts. In my district, I've seen LDS Scoutmasters serve 1 year as SM before their calling changed. 1 year! That's barely enough time to get fully trained let alone work with the boys!

 

The General Young Men's presidency recognizes the shortcomings of the program in the wards and branches, and is trying to come up with ways to fix it. Mandatory training is going to go along way for that. Having active scouters at the district level that are church members will help. With a District Chairman and a Vice-Chairman that are both LDS, it's helping a lot with FOS, Membership drives, advancement and camping already.

 

Yes, we may know what's happening, but it's better to be constructive and try to help the problem than just complain.