LDS BSA Relationship

[jhankins]

How funny, LDS not being allowed anything Disney. I just went to Disneyland for 14 hours with three of my best friends, all Mormons. My baptist son and I had a blast with our friends and enjoyed everything Disney while discussing church/scout politics in the lines

 

I talked with a Stake YM President about why girls can't have their own Venturing crews, or why the GSA isn't used as a church program -- it's because the church feels comfortable with the program they offer the girls on their own. That being said, there are a group of young LDS women looking for a charter org for their own out-of-church Venturing Crew because they want to earn the awards, too.

 

 

[jhankins]

How funny, LDS not being allowed anything Disney. I just went to Disneyland for 14 hours with three of my best friends, all Mormons. My baptist son and I had a blast with our friends and enjoyed everything Disney while discussing church/scout politics in the lines

 

I talked with a Stake YM President about why girls can't have their own Venturing crews, or why the GSA isn't used as a church program -- it's because the church feels comfortable with the program they offer the girls on their own. That being said, there are a group of young LDS women looking for a charter org for their own out-of-church Venturing Crew because they want to earn the awards, too.

 

My baptist son is eying a LDS troop because of his happenings with the youth leadership, their events, and the adults (Mom's friends). His only hang up was thinking that the Quorum President (Youth Church leader) had to be the Senior Patrol Leader. This isn't the case, and we're in the process now of working with Salt Lake for better details on Non-members in an LDS troop because it would be an awesome outreach for the church itself if school friends could strengthen the church units and kind of "push" the program towards the proper directions -- especially in my area.

 

 

[jhankins]

How funny, LDS not being allowed anything Disney. I just went to Disneyland for 14 hours with three of my best friends, all Mormons. My baptist son and I had a blast with our friends and enjoyed everything Disney while discussing church/scout politics in the lines

 

I talked with a Stake YM President about why girls can't have their own Venturing crews, or why the GSA isn't used as a church program -- it's because the church feels comfortable with the program they offer the girls on their own. That being said, there are a group of young LDS women looking for a charter org for their own out-of-church Venturing Crew because they want to earn the awards, too.

 

My baptist son is eying a LDS troop because of his happenings with the youth leadership, their events, and the adults (Mom's friends). His only hang up was thinking that the Quorum President (Youth Church leader) had to be the Senior Patrol Leader. This isn't the case, and we're in the process now of working with Salt Lake for better details on Non-members in an LDS troop because it would be an awesome outreach for the church itself if school friends could strengthen the church units and kind of "push" the program towards the proper directions -- especially in my area.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Jhankins, thanks for confirming your sanity . When it comes to weird stuff people believe and do in the name of religion, it is tough to top the South for examples. Right now, there's a continuing effort in some churches (not to mention a Facebook group) to pray for Obama to die. Good grief!

 

I'm mostly interested in understanding the motivations and intentions behind BSA's decisions and actions in all this. The relationship with LDS provides a glimpse into the decision-making process and the 'character' of the BSA leadership (which to me is almost as mysterious as the weird stuff that I find attached to various faiths).

Kind of like studying animal behavior...you have to study what they actually do and try to untangle the mechanisms and motivations. It's not easy but the BSA/LDS relationship provides a fertile area for inquiry.

 

With regard to posts becoming anti-LDS, my observation is that when there are questions, at first they are perceived as questions about a faith. At some indefinite point, the perception can shift that those same questions may seem to be questioning THE faith itself. Primate social behavior is just fascinating!

[jhankins]

Sorry about the multiple posts, I was having internet issues last night!

 

The best way to dispel myths and answer questions is to gain knowledge, and that's part of what we're doing here. Getting involved with leaders from other religions also helps, and can bridge the gaps we have in the program.

[Bando]

The 800-pound gorilla in the room isn't that LDS constitutes such a large proportion of the BSA, but rather, the fact that their large presence has forced the BSA to take hard-line policies on a number of issues.

 

Does James Dale happen if the BSA isn't afraid the Mormons will pack up and go home? Who's really afraid of "avowed homosexuals?"

 

For me, that's the biggest issue I have with LDS involvement with Scouting. The attitude Gary has taken in this thread, "We have the largest number of Scouts, so why -shouldn't- it be our way?", seems to be directly in line with this.

 

I realize this probably opens a can of worms, but from my experience in the BSA, and talking to a lot of people from a lot of different places, there's an underlying resentment of the conservatism LDS has instituted on everyone else through their heavy involvement and influence with the National administration.

[packsaddle]

Bando, if you'll read through all the old threads about the Dale decision and about the BSA policy regarding gays, you'll understand that homophobia is hardly confined or even concentrated in LDS.

[Mr. Boyce]

A footnote to the above: one can be opposed to open homosexuals being involved in scouting and not be "homophobic". I have not met very many homophobic people in my lifetime.

[GernBlansten]

Phobia:

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually, the answer is right in front of us and has been mentioned. All Chartering Organizations need to find their voice, vote their values and make their desires known.

 

I dont necessarily like the LDS influence in Scouting, but there is an answer, organize your CO's and have them take part in the process otherwise its like the Whigs saying its not fair that the Tories are so well organized, or the Tories saying its not fair the Whigs are so well organized. From the best I can tell, the LDS is playing by the rules. I may not like the results (and I don't) but if they follow the rules, then we must as well.

 

What have you done to strengthen you CO relationship today?

[Gary_Miller]

It seems many here don't like the relationship the LDS church has with the BSA.

 

Exactly what is it you don't like about the relationship, and why?

 

 

[bacchus]

Sorry to be gone so long. I got a lot of information from my request and would like to summarize some of it.

 

Also, would like to add one additional difference, and that is that LDS congregations can start a unit with a minimum of 2 youth instead of the minimum of 5 elsewhere. This may be the only official difference.

 

Qwazse - had a good experience witha troop, and noted that many policies get broken.

 

Eagle 92 - DE over an "orphan" LDS unit. They were not up to snuff. Non-LDS unites are more involved so have fewer issues. Varsity created specifically at LDS request. Poor quality of training.

 

Skeptic - Some contention LDS to non-LDS, but bridges are being built. Smaller units. Shorter tenure.

 

BadenP - LDS week at Philmont. Largest contributor so special permission to alter BSA programs.

 

JHankins - 3 of 25 Wards had functioning units. Eagle candidate attempted to use quorum president as POR. No Denali awards. Wards not sharing confidential info.

 

NJCubScouter - Answering a couple questions -#5 - The Church leaders ask people to serve, who then still get the background check after submitting their forms; as opposed to non-LDS who volunteer on their own without being asked. Both sources of leaders get a background check, but in the Church if there is a known issue with no official legal history, the individual is less likely to be asked to serve there. #6 Non-LDS youth may not return, however the required activity the Church places on the LDS youth many times causes them to advance in rank faster, making their units appear as eagle mills.

 

PackSaddle - Local option applied to non-LDS. Let me address that one - Of course it applies to all. When I took my COR training that was made very clear that the BSA intends their programs to be used by all CO's to accomplish their goals.

 

OGE - LDS oldest CO, highest number of units, highest numbers, largest contributors of funds, therefore 800 lb. gorilla.

 

GernBlasten - No interaction with LDS. Something about Triple Crown (new term to me, please comment). Outdoor program lacking. Poor patrol method. Disparity of "voting power."

 

Then things turned into an LDS bash-fest.

 

A couple more posts of note, Bando's concern that BSA puts up with the LDS due to a fear of the Church leaving. Also, the conservatism in the Church.

 

OGE - Participate. He doesn't like how things are playing out, but it's fair.

 

So I'm still left with my original question about what some don't like about the LDS program other than not liking the Church itself. There are a lot of issues that seem to stem from lack of leaders being trained, but lack of training is not an official policy of the Church.

 

I'm actually a little surprised at the anti-LDS flavor of this forum. I have been to many multi-council events and without being obnoxious let them know I'm LDS and then we all pick each others brain about how to make our programs better. I have not had a scouter yet give me a hard time about being untrained, voting against them in their council, not using the patrol method correctly, or any of these other issues brought up here.

 

In the spirit of diversity, how about we put our various religious prejudices aside and work together. In my area the Church is relatively small, but I have nothing but GOOD things to say about the non-LDS scouters. We have been working on building bridges for a long time and the entire program is strengthening. By the way, I don't understand this voting power thing as we really do things by consensus in my district. Can somebody share what types of things others vote on?

 

Instead of worrying about having an 800 lb. gorilla in the room and that he might beat you on the head, how about you work with the gorilla and get it on your side. I think that's what the gorilla would like.(This message has been edited by bacchus)

[GernBlansten]

I don't speak for others but here's my list of grievances. Please note, none of these are a slam on Mormons or their theology.

 

1) They carry the most power within the BSA due to their chartering scheme and are unashamed to wield that power over the minority in manipulating national policy.

 

2) Their policy to enroll every age appropriate male youth in the program and maintain that membership despite their interest grossly exaggerates the number of youth served. Then use those numbers to justify #1.

 

3) The most embarrassing episodes in BSA history are tied to LDS charters. Forest fire in Utah a few years ago, the recent sex abuse case in Oregon, the racial discrimination case in the 70s.

 

4) They manipulate the BSA program to better fit their use of it to prepare the boys for missionary service, yet hold firm that other units may not adjust the program to better serve individual communities. I.E. the local option for membership. In fact, they have threatened to leave the BSA, in mass, if a local option was adopted by national.

 

5) Most LDS units are closed units, exclusive to the LDS wards, whereas most other units are a cross section of the communities they serve. One of the biggest benefits of being a Boy Scout is to interact and serve with a diversity of beliefs and cultures. To learn from those differences and strengthen your own character.

 

6) Interaction and fellowship between LDS and non-LDS units is nearly non-existent.

[GernBlansten]

Triple Crown, a national patch earned by attending all three National High Adventure bases. Philmont, Northern Tiers and Seabase.

[bacchus]

I imagine they will need to change it to Quad Crown soon when the new site in WV is developed?

 

If you don't mind, let me answer some of your comments:

1) They carry the most power within the BSA due to their chartering scheme and are unashamed to wield that power over the minority in manipulating national policy.

 

>> I don't understand this one. What has that imagined power changed?

 

2) Their policy to enroll every age appropriate male youth in the program and maintain that membership despite their interest grossly exaggerates the number of youth served. Then use those numbers to justify #1.

 

>> If the concern is that overestimating the active scouts who are in LDS COs, I don't think the people who you think are being fooled are actually dumb enough to be fooled.

 

3) The most embarrassing episodes in BSA history are tied to LDS charters. Forest fire in Utah a few years ago, the recent sex abuse case in Oregon, the racial discrimination case in the 70s.

 

>> Just because the media likes to mention the Church every time they can when there is something negative, does not make the LDS scouting units negative. I don't really have the time right now, but would you like me to get around to doing an internet search of all the BSA mishaps and get a good cross-section from non-LDS units?

 

4) They manipulate the BSA program to better fit their use of it to prepare the boys for missionary service, yet hold firm that other units may not adjust the program to better serve individual communities. I.E. the local option for membership. In fact, they have threatened to leave the BSA, in mass, if a local option was adopted by national.

 

>> Maybe I don't understand what you mean by local option. My COR and other scouter training specifically mentions that COs are to use the BSA programs to fit their needs.

 

5) Most LDS units are closed units, exclusive to the LDS wards, whereas most other units are a cross section of the communities they serve. One of the biggest benefits of being a Boy Scout is to interact and serve with a diversity of beliefs and cultures. To learn from those differences and strengthen your own character.

 

>> Actually the LDS units are not closed units. They just don't usually recruit. My units are very diverse, racial, religious, family income, etc.

 

6) Interaction and fellowship between LDS and non-LDS units is nearly non-existent.

 

>> Maybe this is satisfactory to you but I'm working on changing that in my District and Council, and things have improved substantially.

 

YIS