LDS BSA Relationship

[GernBlansten]

That's my point Baden. I'll accept the total number of units is high and actual for the LDS, but the number of registered youth is artificial and not representative of the real number of active LDS youth. You say 40% are paper scouts, I'd say from my observations its much higher. Sounds to me that the LDS registers a scout at 8 and continues to keep him registered until 18 independent of his activity or the wishes of the parents. No other charter organization does this.

 

Using the argument that the LDS serves the majority of scouts means they should swing the biggest stick is not based on actual kids in the field wearing the uniform.

 

In non-LDS units there are no paper scouts, at least in the units I've been involved in. Who would pay for them? Every scout who registers is active or at least shows some interest sometime during the year and if they don't the next year, they are dropped.

[shortridge]

This is a fascinating discussion. I'm curious ... does anyone know what the origins are of the LDS Church's relationship with the BSA? In other words, why did the church adopt Scouting as its official male youth program way back when? Was there some personal connection between a church leader and the BSA leadership? Or did it start organically, with lots of local units being formed and then percolating to the top?

[jhankins]

A lot of the church/scouting history is available at ldsbsa.org

[GernBlansten]

An alternative resource for studying the history of the LDS/BSA is

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html

 

Note: the 1974 case of the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America did not discriminate because of race, but LDS sponsored troops did have a policy of racial discrimination.

 

This case brought significant changes to the LDS faith, where a revelation was required to resolve it. A revelation by the LDS prophet that dark skinned men could obtain the priesthood.

[BDPT00]

How convenient.

[packsaddle]

I wonder. What is it that LDS gains from its 'purchase' of scouting? They are obviously willing to pay many $thousands for youth who are not participating in any meaningful way...for a youth organization that they could easily reproduce on their own with the money they invest, truly owned and customized to their unique needs. What advantage do they get from the BSA brand?

It seems obvious why the non-LDS BSA leadership is joined at the hip with LDS. It just isn't obvious what the motivation is for LDS.

 

Who has access to BSA membership records? Does the LDS church have access to records of all BSA members? By submitting an application, do we automatically get entered into their FamilySearch database for proxy baptism? Or what?

I just don't understand the underlying motivation for a faith that could so easily go it alone (and sort of does anyway with their 'local option') to quietly (let's face it, most of us wouldn't know about this if not for forums like this) infiltrate and take over the BSA.

[Gary_Miller]

It seems to me that this discussion is starting to turn into LDS bashing, and obvious that some members of this site are very much anti LDS. While you may have your own personal views about the LDS doctrine this is not the place for that discussion. This discussion is about the LDS church and its Relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. If you all continue in choosing to take this tread in the direction it is heading. I will choose to not participate. If you honestly want to know about scouting in the LDS church and it relationship with BSA I will do my best to answer your questions. You choose.

 

GernBlansten, Why would a supporter of BSA even participate in the web site you posted is beyond reason.

 

shortridge, I have to leave and will be gone for a couple of days when I return I will try and answer your questions.

[GernBlansten]

"GernBlansten, Why would a supporter of BSA even participate in the web site you posted is beyond reason."

 

It is difficult to develop an informed opinion about a relationship unless one knows all sides of the issue. The first website only shows favorable BSA/LDS relationships. The site I posted shows the other side.

In a thread about LDS/BSA relationships, shouldn't a watershed event in history be brought up? Especially one with significant ramifications to both parties?

Like FoxNews, I report, you decide.

[Gunny2862]

Actually Gary I'm KIND of interested in your input.

But not to the point where if we are having an open discussion that I consider what you appear to be proposing, to wit and putting words in your mouth but it's the way I'm reading it, "I'll gladly tell you about the LDS as long as all comments are favorable and any factoids I provide aren't challenged."

 

I am a fan of discussion because that's about the topic, I am not a debate fan because that's about a competition and who crafts their argument the best - not about finding the truth through conversation.

[shortridge]

"While you may have your own personal views about the LDS doctrine this is not the place for that discussion. This discussion is about the LDS church and its Relationship with the Boy Scouts of America."

 

The only point even remotely related to doctrine that has been brought up was the observation GernBlansten made about race. And that was within the context of the BSA's relationship with the church. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[BadenP]

Gary

I understand how you might feel ganged up on right now, however as OGE put it the LDS scouting program has always been that "800 lb gorilla in the room" surrounded in mystery and subject to much curiousity by non LDS scouters. Funny thing is yesterday I had two Mormon young men knock on my door and we had a very interesting chat. They were both Eagle Scouts and we talked about this very topic in some detail, they had some fascinating insights.

 

I encourage you to continue to offer your insights and not let certain comments we may make be taken as personal attacks. It is just disheartening to me that the LDS has this big influence over BSA National while many of the rest of us non LDS scouters seem to feel this big disconnect between us and National.

[Engineer61]

 

"Note: the 1974 case of the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America did not discriminate because of race, but LDS sponsored troops did have a policy of racial discrimination."

 

This is the basic equivalent of BSA National instituting a policy, but not enforcing it at the troop level, unless a stink is raised. While the LDS proclaims multi-ethnic acceptance within the LDS, it is, by and large, not accepted by the typical member.

 

None of the LDS troops that I have seen in my area (a very large percentage of the total number of troops) have any non-white members. Unfortunately, this stigma affects the non-LDS affiliated troops as well. Virtually all of the non-white Cubs in the past two years have continued on. Of those that did, one dropped after the first meeting...on religious grounds.

 

From outside appearances, it looks like the BSA has become a requirement for LDS boys by the LDS, while the girls are prohibited from participating in GSA by the LDS. In fact when my daughter was in GSA, none of the LDS families in the area would by GS cookies...she was told this was because GSA promoted/endorsed abortion.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Do they watch Disney movies?

I know churches in this area that prohibit their members from anything Disney. Has something to do with gays, I guess Disney World has 'gay days'...actually I took my family there once on a 'gay day', we had a lot of fun. I'm going to burn in that mythical place for sure now!

[GernBlansten]

Pack, you were wondering what the LDS gains from adopting the BSA program for their male youth instead of designing their own? I have a theory. Its an attempt to become more mainstream. What better program to adopt for your youth than the mom and apple pie image the Boy Scouts have. The general public doesn't connect the BSA with any particular faith. The LDS have always faced a resistance to mainstream acceptance by other protestant faiths. Aligning themselves with the BSA puts them on the same level as the Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians.

 

Unfortunately, the LDS cannot accept the standard BSA program all other faiths and organizations can and see a need to modify it to their needs.

 

In the past this meant non-white scouts could not serve as SPL as they required the SPL to also hold the LDS priesthood. That got the BSA in a pickle. Something had to change.

"From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) had a policy against ordaining black men of African descent to the priesthood. Under the same policy, black men and women of African descent were prohibited from participating in the temple Endowment and sealings, ordinances that the church teaches are necessary for the highest degree of salvation. However, the LDS Church has always had an open membership policy for all races, and black people who were aware of the racial policy did join the church. In 1978, church leaders ceased the racial restriction policy, declaring that they had received a revelation instructing them to do so. Today, the church opposes racial discrimination and racism."

 

Either the LDS doctrine or racial discrimination or the BSA anti-discrimination rule needed to prevail. They could not co-exist. Amazingly, and rightly, the LDS accepted non-whites through revelation to hold the priesthood and the BSA issue went away.

 

However, this disconnect still leads to LDS exclusive units and no interaction with other non-LDS units. Most on the east coast do not understand this division, but those of us in the western states see it at every scouting event.

[jhankins]

How funny, LDS not being allowed anything Disney. I just went to Disneyland for 14 hours with three of my best friends, all Mormons. My baptist son and I had a blast with our friends and enjoyed everything Disney while discussing church/scout politics in the lines