1st Amendment and BSA

[evmori]

You are fighting a losing battle Beavah. Merlyn will never fess up! It's just like his list of public schools he published awhile back that included private schools that he never bothered to correct. Merlyn's tactics - yell & scream louder and longer than anyone else and you will get your way be it right or wrong.

[skeptic]

No Ed, he does not get his way; we simply tune him out, just as I do to you and a few others on occasion. And I am sure that I too am tuned out by others sometimes.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[NJCubScouter]

Skeptic, it is unfortunate that Merlyn chooses to communicate in a way that makes some people "tune him out", because when he sticks to discussing legal issues, he is correct the vast majority of the time.

[Beavah]

Nah, he overstates his claim, NJCubScouter.

 

But da point is that it's not about bein' right or wrong. Good citizenship and good personal ethics and good mental health generally aren't about bein' right or wrong on some petty issue or another. It's about bigger stuff, eh?

 

It's about seeing enough of value in another person to be willing to give up being right. I know I give up being right to Mrs. Beavah all the time . It's about caring about others no matter how goofy or silly or rebellious or dense they are, eh? That's why we scouter types work with kids .

 

Our national politics at da moment is overrun by people who seem to care only about scoring points against da other side. Tragic. They're makin' everyone miserable, including themselves. Ain't about being right or wrong. It's about valuing da other person, and working together to get something done.

 

I think Merlyn is attracted to scoutin' and these forums because he longs for that experience - for doin' something valuable and hard and truly meaningful for other folks. Maybe for kids, maybe somethin' else. Most bright folks with passion are really looking for that, and he's a bright fellow with passion. He's just gettin' sidetracked by a meaningless issue.

 

When yeh get passionate complainers in your cub pack, I reckon one of da things yeh do is put 'em in charge of something, eh? They've got da time, da energy, and the desire to see something done right. And along the way, when they start gettin' complaints themselves, they realize how helpin' people is harder and more complimicated than they thought before. They learn to be more tolerant of folks who are tryin' to do good things being "wrong."

 

That's what Merlyn needs. About time we helped him get there, rather than just toyin' with him da way we have been. Not that it hasn't been fun; a bit like makin' a cat chase a laser pointer.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Now you are being dishonest! Us married men all know you have no choice! LOL! It's a "catch 22" situation!

[NJCubScouter]

Beavah, I'm not discussing other posters with you, at least not in this public venue. Regardless of what you may think, there is an actual issue being discussed in this thread, you have posted about it, and that is what I want to discuss. So are going to answer the question I asked you this morning, or not?

[vol_scouter]

Before participating on these threads, I had a positive opinion of atheists though I did not agree with them. Those who accuse atheists of wishing to rid all pubic life of religious expression, I considered overstating the case. Merlyn has been successful in making me reconsider those views. His intolerance, anger, and contempt for those who disagree with him has made me concerned that perhaps some of those reports may deserve some credence. I doubt that he has ever changed anyone's mind to his way of thinking. I sincerely doubt that anyone here does the same thing on an atheist forum (I assume that they exist).

[NJCubScouter]

Vol-scouter, just out of curiosity, have you ever known any devoutly religious people who were intolerant, angry and contemptuous of others? Or just one atheist? I have to tell you that in my experience, intolerant, angry and contemptuous people (as well as helpful, friendly, cheerful and kind people) are found in virtually all walks of life, races, ethnic groups, colors, religions (or non-religions), ages, national origins, sexual orientations, genders, activities, social classes, education levels, you name it. It doesn't mean everyone in the world is intolerant, angry and contemptuous.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah NJ,

 

Same here. When it comes to religious people, some are the kindest, mosr caring and generally best people. But others are hardheaded, stubborn people who would rather stick their fingers in their ears and sing hymms instead of even possibly considereing that others may have a different point of veiw. No, not talking about agreeing, just recognizing that other views exist.

I have know a few athiests too. Prety cool folks. They were outgoing community members too. One of them even buys dinners from a church's annual fundraiser and such on this premis: Even though he did not believe in God, he recognized the good that the church did for folks.

 

I have fiends who are Wiccan, I have a few gay friends, and an athiest as well as many religious friends.

 

So far, I just see them all as friends and leave the otherv stuff to them.

 

Contempt and arrogance are not inclusive to any one group of people!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah writes:

Good citizenship and good personal ethics and good mental health generally aren't about bein' right or wrong on some petty issue or another. It's about bigger stuff, eh?

 

Beavah, you constantly dismiss the rights of atheist students. Merely arguing that atheist students HAVE rights is apparently unethical to you, because that would mean schools couldn't ignore their rights to run BSA units.

 

vol_scouter writes:

Those who accuse atheists of wishing to rid all pubic life of religious expression, I considered overstating the case. Merlyn has been successful in making me reconsider those views. His intolerance, anger, and contempt for those who disagree with him has made me concerned that perhaps some of those reports may deserve some credence.

 

vol_scouter, if you want to draw ridiculously fallacious conclusions about atheists, I can't stop you; however, I suspect what you're really trying to do is just insult me but you lack the guts to be direct.

 

And, by the way, I haven't seen any atheist who wants to rid all public life of religious expression, but I've seen plenty of religious types who say that's what atheists want when atheists prevent government officials from using their office to promote their religious views, or when atheists stop violations of their rights.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

I'll concede, atheists have rights. But, only the same rights as the rest of us, not extra rights. Atheists do not have a right to join a private club, that is a privledge.

[evmori]

OK! Whoever posted that atheists don't have rights raise their hand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's what I thought!

 

Atheists have the same rights as the Presbyterians & the Wiccans & the Catholics & the Seventh Day Adventists & the Mormons and everyone else. But that doesn't mean they have the right to join ANY private organization. If ANYONE does not meet the guidelines of ANY private organization, they will be denied membership. That is not infringing on ANYONE's rights. And a school allowing a BSA unit to meet in their building is not infringing on ANYONE's rights!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Correct Gonzo1, but that includes not having public schools run private clubs.

[Gonzo1]

Again Merlyn, it's not so much the school running the private club, but rather, providing a place for the club to meet. I don't think the principal is cubmaster or that the receptionist is the treasurer.

 

Schools have provided a place for the scout units, GBLT clubs (which I'm personally opposed to, but in fairness - they meet), Fellowship of Christian Athletes and so on. If your group want to meet

[Beavah]

 

Beavah, you constantly dismiss the rights of atheist students.

 

Lying again, eh? I think students should be allowed to join an American Atheists club that's sponsored by their public school. I think they have that right to assemble on school grounds with their friends and like-minded individuals, and do what AA clubs do, eh? Free of zealous Christians or Muslims trying to change what their club stands for. I'd say it serves a public purpose to allow that, because it's good for kids to have a community they feel a part of at school, and because I trust AA has an educational mission that advances da public good in many ways - teaches kids critical thinking skills, citizenship, etc.

 

I think you should start such a club, Merlyn. I think you should put your care and concern for young atheist boys and girls where your mouth is. If yeh really care about such children yourself, you'd be out helpin' 'em learn and grow. You wouldn't let a bunch of token religious Scoutmasters show you up by giving a thousand more hours of community service to kids each year than you do (even to some of your atheist kids, eh!).

 

Every one of us here would support you in that mission. We'd encourage you, give you advice, help you with resources. We'd want you to succeed in offerin' the best possible program to kids.

 

So how 'bout it? Do yeh care enough about kids to give 'em your time and energy? Respect 'em enough to be part of their life? Or are yeh just a poser?

 

Beavah