1st Amendment and BSA

[OldGreyEagle]

Lisabob, I am keeping an open mind on this and I know you teach in a University setting (I think).

 

So, the University students wear flip flops through mud and then want to wash their feet? Would it not be smarter to make a more appropriate foot wear selection and eschew the necessity of installing foot baths?

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

If it's a public forum, go right ahead Ed.

[Gunny2862]

OGE, I also spend a significant amount of time on a University campus, the flip-flop sandal thing is not the occasional student but on certain days rises to nearly 30% on at least one campus.

That said, I've never seen anyone but students, whom I happen to know are Muslim, wash their feet in a sink.

 

Take walk through the fountains, sure, rub their feet after getting out, perhaps, but I'v e not ever seen anyone but a known Muslim use a sink to wash their feet.

[evmori]

Well, Merlyn, why were governments forced to remove the nativity displays they had in their buildings?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Because they weren't displays put up by private individuals in public forums (legal), they were religious displays put up by government entities (illegal). Why don't you know this?

[GernBlansten]

I don't like the idea of public funds putting in foot baths for religious reasons, however they do not restrict their use.

If use of the foot baths was restricted to only Muslim faithful, then the situation would be the same as a public entity owning a BSA unit.

[evmori]

Because they weren't displays put up by private individuals in public forums (legal), they were religious displays put up by government entities (illegal). Why don't you know this?

 

I know this. The foot baths weren't put up by private individuals in public forums (legal), they were installed for a specific religious group by tax dollars (illegal). Why don't you see this?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Put your money where your mouth is, Ed. File a lawsuit. There have been plenty of successful lawsuits against creches put up by government entities, and I think even a few unsuccessful ones against creches put up by private individuals in public forums, so if you're so certain you're right and the constitution is being violated, why not file a lawsuit? Or don't you care about the constitution?

[Oak Tree]

The current test for whether an action is constitutional under the first amendment is the Lemon test (from Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971):

 

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

 

Creating foot baths does have a secular legislative purpose, I guess, of allowing students to clean their feet. As long as a number of non-Muslims do this for cleanliness purposes, I might buy this. I still am dubious on this point, though, because it was clearly the government's intent to provide these for a religious purpose, not a secular one.

 

On point 2, I think the government's action clearly is a stamp of approval on the Muslim practice of foot-washing. The primary effect of installing the foot-baths is that Muslims can now more conveniently practice an act associated with their religion.

 

I don't think there is excessive entanglement here.

[evmori]

Maybe because your anger blinds you.

 

Foot baths built in public schools with taxpayer money for Muslims so they could comply with Muslim religious ritual is a direct endorsement of a religion by the government.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Then FILE A LAWSUIT, Ed. Or don't you care about constitutional violations?

[CA_Scouter]

OMG! I think we have an agreement here!

 

Merlyn says: 'don't you care about constitutional violations?'

 

Ed says: '...is a direct endorsement of a religion by the government'

 

Seems to me that they are AGREEING here! Can I get an AMEN?

 

I think the end of the world is near!

 

;-)

 

 

[evmori]

Yes we do agree. But it appears Merlyn doesn't care about this type of constitutional violation but will squawk until the cows come home about the government illegally chartering BSA units.

 

As for me, I don't really care either, but then again, I'm not against the government chartering BSA units nor do I feel my rights are being stomped on.

[GernBlansten]

Ed,

would you care if the footbaths were exclusively restricted for people of Muslim faith?

 

That is exactly what the BSA/public school charter creates. An exclusive use of a public service based on religious affiliation.

[studentscout]

Evmori, if you don't care, then why are YOU squawking? At least Merlyn cares about part of it. If you think he is a hypocrit, I advise you not to look in the mirror. You'll see Merlyn staring back at you.

 

Regarding the foot washing, here in SC and GA, and probably TN, AL, and MS, they don't use the sinks. Rather the natives use the toilet...so much easier to reach. Just put those tootsies in and flip the lever...whoosh! Just kidding.