1st Amendment and BSA

[CA_Scouter]

No, the one where he challenges you to come down from your ivory tower and put foot to pavement.

 

Consider this analogy:

 

I write software for a living. I design it, document id, write it and test it ( actually I'm in mgmt now, so I tell everyone else how to do it ;-) ). I have specs that tell me what the business rules are and I transform that into a useable product. The spec tells me exactly how its supposed to work.

 

But then, SHAZAAM! It has to interact with users and data and more often than not, the results do not match what the spec says. IMAGINE THAT! THE REALITY DOESN'T MATCH THE PHILOSOPHY! Until I actually get down into the trenches and bust tail, I cannot understand nor grasp the reality of how the software will REALLY be used in the workplace.

 

Beav's challenge is similar to that...

 

But you are an intelligent guy and you know that already, eh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah's challenge is just as I described it; a faux, holier-than-thou charade. Meanwhile, he has no qualms advocating that atheist kids be left out in the cold.

[OldGreyEagle]

this may be hyperbole but here goes,

 

We say that having an Islamic Foot Bath in a Public Restroom in a Public Building with Public Funds is Ok because the Foot Bath will be open to anyone to use and it serves a secular purpose

 

So, a duplicate of Leonardo Da Vinci's The Last Supper" may be painted on the wall in that same Public Restroom in a Public Building with Public Funds? I enjoy the classics of the Arts and I think the public would benefit from enjoying great art. One need not be a Christian to appreciate the artistry and composition of Da Vinci's "The Last Supper" so it should be ok to reproduce it with Public Funds

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

What's the secular reason for selecting that particular artwork, OGE?

[acco40]

Q) Why did Jesus and all his disciples sit on the same side of the table?

 

A) To fit in the picture.

[Beavah]

Meanwhile, he has no qualms advocating that atheist kids be left out in the cold.

 

If they are, it's only because fellows like yourself who could provide 'em a strong program don't step up to da plate. I'd support yeh, I'd give yeh what advice I could, I'd argue yeh should have access and school sponsorship. Heck, if yeh were doing a good job for da lads, I might even send you money. But I can't offer an atheist program, eh? I don't have da knowledge or the temperament. I should (quite rightly) be excluded as a leader.

 

So if fellows like you don't step up, you're right, eh? Some atheist's kid may be left out in the cold. That's why, if yeh really care about such kids, you need to get involved, and others like you. Yeh need to offer your time in a program that benefits such kids.

 

Don't expect us religionists to shoulder da burden of providin' that kind of service. We don't know how. But it seems like you know how, and it seems like you claim to care about such kids. So what mature citizens do when they care enough about somethin' is they step forward and volunteer. They give their time and their treasure to meet da need they care about.

 

There's a lad somewhere who is aching for a place to fit in, a place to share his skepticism and hone his mind, an adult who can affirm his views with quiet dignity of example. He's waitin' for you, Merlyn. Da only question is, do you care enough to actually step forward and volunteer?

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I stated

 

I enjoy the classics of the Arts and I think the public would benefit from enjoying great art. One need not be a Christian to appreciate the artistry and composition of Da Vinci's "The Last Supper" so it should be ok to reproduce it with Public Funds

 

One doesnt need to be Christian to appreciate Michelangelo's David or be a follower of Ancient Rome's Religion to appreciate Prometheus and Atlas at Rockerfeller Center

 

Is not the quiet comtemplation of true artistic talent of some benefit?

[acco40]

So Beavah and Merlyn are in agreement. Both agree that the BSA should allow local / CO option of allowing atheist into units! Congrats! Count me in with you guys.

 

Merlyn - Meanwhile, he has no qualms advocating that atheist kids be left out in the cold.

 

Beavah - If they are, it's only because fellows like yourself who could provide 'em a strong program don't step up to da plate. I'd support yeh, I'd give yeh what advice I could, I'd argue yeh should have access and school sponsorship.

 

Now, how should the three of us get together to try and persuade the BSA to accept this change? Any other takers?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah writes, reply to me:

"Meanwhile, he has no qualms advocating that atheist kids be left out in the cold."

 

If they are, it's only because fellows like yourself who could provide 'em a strong program don't step up to da plate.

 

Wrong, and this is exactly why having public schools discriminate is a problem. Because there are still plenty of people like you who would see no problem in cutting off a group you dislike from a program paid for by all, and contemptuously telling them to "get their own program", whether that group is atheists or Jews or blacks or whatever.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

But why that particular work, OGE? If a court was reviewing this, your earlier remarks about Muslims and sinks would probably have the courts conclude your motive was promoting your religious views.

[Beavah]

people like you who would see no problem in cutting off a group you dislike from a program paid for by all

 

Nah, scoutin' pays its own way. Very few CO's even contribute to charter fees. But people like us would have no problem funding a group we disliked (say a school AA club). Seems like it's you who wants to cut off a group you dislike from da public schooling program paid for by all.

 

and contemptuously telling them to "get their own program"

 

If offerin' help to get yeh started and even offerin' to contribute is contemptuous, I must have mislaid my dictionary .

 

I don't care if yeh get your own program. I just am encouragin' you to join and contribute to any youth program. Volunteer for da Boosters. Yeh seem to have time durin' the day to be on a computer, go in to tutor math or offer an after-school computer club. Call up your local school district and offer to help 'em with the middle school forensics club (middle schools around here always need volunteer help for electives and extracurriculars). Go to a church and offer to give a talk on da atheist perspective to their confirmation class. Coach soccer. Lead da chess club. Whatever.

 

Yeh seem to expect that other people should volunteer, but not you. We religious volunteers must shoulder da burden of providing a values-based outdoor citizenship and leadership program to atheists, eh? But as you've told us repeatedly, we'd be lousy at it! We're all liars and contemptuous twads, eh? Why in da world would you want kids you care about to be subject to our leadership?! We agree with yeh, we really would be awful at it, which is why we don't do it. I couldn't go out into God's wild places with kids and not share a religious perspective. Our Oath and Law, our symbols like da Arrow of Light, are all religiously grounded.

 

Admitting the son of some dedicated atheists to scoutin' with us really would be dishonest. Why in the name of Him Whom You Call a Myth would yeh want that?

 

At the same time, why would anybody who cares about kids turn away a bunch of tom-fools who want to volunteer a thousand hours a year to provide an educational, service-based citizenship and leadership program at no cost to da district?

 

They shouldn't turn you away, either. Whether yeh want to run an AA club or be the summer Discovery Camp director. You can be the person who actually makes a difference in some lad's life. And all of us here as scouters and non-atheists would support you in tryin' to offer a good program to whatever kids you thought you could reach. Because by reachin' some kids, you'd be doin' a good turn and a solid public service. Just like we do a solid public service by reachin' some kids. Same as NHS. Same as band.

 

Yeh don't seem like you're married, most of us married fellows gave up bein' right a long time ago . Bein' right is overrated, eh? All about ego. Carin' for people, that's what counts. Go find some young folks, and care enough about 'em to give 'em a bunch of your time.

 

I dare yeh!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori]

Well, what if it is a watercolor of St Peter's in Rome?

 

About the foot baths, your argument seems a little flimsy, Merlyn. If the foot baths were built in a public school with public funds for Muslims, it really makes no difference why they were built or who uses them. They were built for a specific religion and that is endorsing a religion.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

"Wrong, and this is exactly why having public schools discriminate is a problem. Because there are still plenty of people like you who would see no problem in cutting off a group you dislike from a program "

 

WRONG!

 

Merlyn,

He is asking you why..if you really are concerned for any youth, haven't you created or tried to start a program for them. So far, you "see no problem in cutting off a group you dislike from a program "

 

Yet you have no idea of what a program should be. You haven't even tried your own program.

 

Your only association with any kids is destroying thier program in their supposed sake.

 

So in your answer, you specifically and completely identified yourself!

 

You aren't interested in any kids programs, you just want to shut down those that do not follow your beliefs.

 

Good job! You should be proud.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually Merlyn only wants the BSA to be treated as the private organization the Sureme Court said it was.

 

This does mean that no taxpayer money is to be spent on an organization that discriminates on a legal basis

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah, when a school charters a BSA unit, it's a school program, not a private program. At that point, you can't tell atheist kids to "get their own program" because it's as much theirs as any other program run by a public school. If you want a private club, you need to actually act like one.