1st Amendment and BSA

[evmori]

Pie time!

[CA_Scouter]

Can the Harlem Globetrotters sponser a BSA unit?

 

;-)

 

[CalicoPenn]

The Harlem Globetrotters cheat, steal and lie to win basketball games. Is that really the kind of sponsor we want for a Boy Scout Troop?

[Gonzo1]

The Globetrotters have FUN!

Maybe "Friends of the Globetrotters" can.

 

You continue to fail to see the Free Exercise thereof part.

 

I don't care if a government entity sponsors an atheist group, jewish group or whatever.

 

If you really want to learn to camp, earn badges have fun and learn to build fires, go join the Spiral Scouts . . . . or get religion and come with me.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

You continue to fail to see the Free Exercise thereof part.

 

Wrong; "free exercise" does not mean "requires a government subsidy."

 

I don't care if a government entity sponsors an atheist group, jewish group or whatever.

 

I do. The government can't practice religious discrimination.

 

[Gonzo1]

A school is not REQUIRED to sponsor a scout unit, it may if it wishes, if the community wishes and if the entity wishes. If cops want an explorer post, what's the big deal if the cops want, the kids want it, the community wants it. Now, we know that "Friends of XYZ school" can, the actual school can't.

 

In your pronouncement of my "wrongness", requiring government entities to sponsor scout units is more like the following:

"Effective immediately, all police stations shall sponsor explorer posts, all public schools shall sponsor cub scout packs"

 

A subsidy means that governement would be paying for the scouts, I guess you count the electricy use to run the lights and a/c or furnace.

 

I think it all boils down to this: We have something you want, either for yourself or as you claim to "advocate" for others, for them. I realize that not all members of this forum agree with me or you. The rules are the rules.

 

CalicoPenn,

The Globetrotters are entertainers, and not actually playing "competitive" games.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

A school is not REQUIRED to sponsor a scout unit, it may if it wishes, if the community wishes and if the entity wishes.

 

Wrong. Sponsoring a scout unit requires the sponsoring unit to practice religious discrimination, and public schools can't do that.

 

If cops want an explorer post, what's the big deal if the cops want, the kids want it, the community wants it.

 

Nothing. But Explorer Posts don't exclude atheists (or gays or girls, for that matter). Do try and keep current.

 

Now, we know that "Friends of XYZ school" can, the actual school can't.

 

Right, because these are two different situations.

 

I think it all boils down to this: We have something you want, either for yourself or as you claim to "advocate" for others, for them. I realize that not all members of this forum agree with me or you. The rules are the rules.

 

I think "the rules are the rules" includes things like what public schools legally can and cannot do.

[evmori]

Wrong. Sponsoring a scout unit requires the sponsoring unit to practice religious discrimination, and public schools can't do that.

 

I think we need to get the terminology correct, Merlyn. Chartering and sponsoring are different and Scout units are chartered. Public schools sponsor all kinds of clubs.

[Gonzo1]

I heard in the news recently that a public was forced to provide a place and time for muslim students to pray, each day the students were in the school, in accordance with theri religion.

 

Do you see the irony here? A school forced to provide a place and time for muslim students to pray, but Christians and Jews are not allowed.

 

I don't kow how many public schools now charter scout units, frankly, I don't care.

 

For the sake of "keeping up", I wish to remind you that the BSA is a private organization and can admit anyone it wants to. it can also refuse or reject admission as well. I'm sorry you have a problem with that, but seeing that you're an attorney, you should realize that the court has spoken.

 

You know Merlyn, sometimes we don't like a court's decisions, but we have to live by them, kinda like abortion. I don't agree with it, but hey, it's supposedly the law of the land, eventhough the woman in Roe vs. Wade has found God and regretted having an abortion. The point here is that the court has spoken. Now, all of us "pro-life" people are told to shut up by the pro-abortion people. You're smart, do the math.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

I heard in the news recently that a public was forced to provide a place and time for muslim students to pray, each day the students were in the school, in accordance with theri religion.

 

Do you see the irony here? A school forced to provide a place and time for muslim students to pray, but Christians and Jews are not allowed.

 

Not allowed what? Christians and Jews (and atheists, and anyone else) have the same rights as Muslims in US public schools. But until you come up with a real reference, instead of something you "heard in the news recently," you haven't presented anything solid enough to comment on. I'm sure it isn't the way you've described, with Muslims having special rights that members of other religions don't have.

 

I don't kow how many public schools now charter scout units, frankly, I don't care.

 

I do.

 

For the sake of "keeping up", I wish to remind you that the BSA is a private organization and can admit anyone it wants to. it can also refuse or reject admission as well.

 

And public schools can't practice religious discrimination, so they can't own & operate private clubs that exclude people bases on their religion.

 

I'm sorry you have a problem with that,

 

I have a problem with the BSA continuing to charter units illegally to government entities.

 

but seeing that you're an attorney, you should realize that the court has spoken.

 

I'm not an attorney.

 

You know Merlyn, sometimes we don't like a court's decisions, but we have to live by them, kinda like abortion. I don't agree with it, but hey, it's supposedly the law of the land, eventhough the woman in Roe vs. Wade has found God and regretted having an abortion. The point here is that the court has spoken. Now, all of us "pro-life" people are told to shut up by the pro-abortion people. You're smart, do the math.

 

I'm fine with all the court precedents that prevent public schools from discriminating on the basis of religion.

[evmori]

http://thesop.org/story/usa/2009/11/20/maine-muslim-students-right-to-pray.php

 

http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/muslim_prayer_in_public_schools

 

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/1347/exclusive-so-long-churchstate-separation-university-of-michigan-to-fund-muslim-footbaths/

 

 

[Lisabob]

Uh, I must point out that I work at another University that installed "Muslim" foot baths. You know what, they are quite popular, and last I checked, they work just fine for non-Muslims, too. Speaking of a tempest in a tea pot!

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I said to Gonzo1 " I'm sure it isn't the way you've described, with Muslims having special rights that members of other religions don't have."

 

Then Ed posts some irrelevant links:

http://thesop.org/story/usa/2009/11/20/maine-muslim-students-right-to-pray.php

This link is about CAIR stating that a Muslim student has a right to pray, as do all students.

 

http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/muslim_prayer_in_public_schools

This link starts with a falsehood ("For years, Christian prayer has been banned in public schools") and makes mostly vague claims with no specifics ("These schools are giving the Islamic students breaks to pray during the school day" when just listing cities, not schools). In the one specific case mentioned in San Diego, you'll notice it also mentions Christians asking for the same accommodation.

 

Statements by school officials indicate that they treat all religions equally:

http://old.sandi.net:80/news/2007/religious_observances.html

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070801/news_lz1e1cohn.html

 

So this isn't an example either.

 

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/1347/exclusive-so-long-churchstate-separation-university-of-michigan-to-fund-muslim-footbaths/

 

Schlussel writing about church/state separation makes my irony meter explode. As pointed out before, these are not Muslim-only sinks.

 

 

[evmori]

Nothing anyone posts ever fits, does it Merlyn so I'll just keep posting!

 

http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/006359.html

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_praf.htm

 

(This message has been edited by evmori)

[skeptic]

Good to see we still have "April Fools".