when you disagree with policies

[Lisabob]

I did not start this thread to be a name calling thread, so I hope it does not disintegrate into that sort of behavior.

 

 

In the initial thread a poster stated that people who belong to an organization where they disagree with the policies are "intellectual cowards," too willing to look the other way. Specifically, regarding the BSA's official exclusion of atheists from membership.

 

I would say that people who are part of the BSA, who disagree with the BSA's exclusionary policies, are often pragmatists but not cowards. When there is critical mass of people WITHIN the BSA who do not like BSA policy, then BSA policy will inevitably change. Outside pressure is valuable too, but I do not think the BSA will alter its policies due to disagreement from non-members.

 

More to the point, in any organization there will probably be some policies with which a member might disagree. If those policies are key to the actual day-to-day life of the organization then this is a real problem. If those policies are not central to the daily function of the group then the individual member must weigh the good and bad. In this case I believe that the BSA has policies on paper that do not match with realities on the ground in a growing number of units. As a result I think those specific BSA's policies are becoming less and less relevant to the daily operational life of many units. I have not one time been witness to a unit that told a boy they couldn't join based on the DRP. In the 9 years that my son has been involved in scouting, I think that I may have heard 1 conversation about this particular issue at a scouting function. This board is about the only place I am aware of where scout leaders ever talk about this kind of thing, and let's face it - we on the board are a tiny minority of scout leaders. The overwhelming majority of unit leaders have probably never even heard of, or read in full, or thought about, the DRP. In reality for many units then, it becomes a non-issue. And that is why I think that having a critical mass of people inside the BSA who do not agree with BSA membership policies will cause the eventual change to those policies.

 

In the meantime, advocating for a tolerant, common-sense, and relaxed (as opposed to rigid, dogmatic, and witch-hunt) approach to working with youth is not cowardly, in my book. It is both difficult work, and work with important real-world impact to improve the lives of our boys.

 

 

 

 

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

And how many people on this forum advocating that change are really Scout leaders?

 

This forum is a great soapbox for those advocating change and having it look like it's coming from within Scouting. I personally doubt if the clamor for change approaches anywhere near the percentage, in the general Scouting community, that the casual reader of this forum is led to believe.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The "intellectual cowards" I referred to in the parent thread were people who both agreed with (or at least defended) the BSA's policies on atheists, but refuse to enforce them in any meaningful sense.

[Eagledad]

>>The overwhelming majority of unit leaders have probably never even heard of, or read in full, or thought about, the DRP. In reality for many units then, it becomes a non-issue.

[sherminator505]

"I would say that people who are part of the BSA, who disagree with the BSA's exclusionary policies, are often pragmatists but not cowards. When there is critical mass of people WITHIN the BSA who do not like BSA policy, then BSA policy will inevitably change. Outside pressure is valuable too, but I do not think the BSA will alter its policies due to disagreement from non-members."

 

I wholeheartedly agree. I am troubled by some of the BSA's membership policies, and that probably made my recent hiatus from Scouting a bit longer than it would have been otherwise. But I came to realize that there is nothing to be gained from picking up my marbles and going home in a snit. I have also come to realize that Scouting does do good, and that in a very real spiritual sense Scouting is a calling for me.

 

So what do I do? I don't shy away from sharing my opinions on the matter. Here is a good place to do that, although I have had conversations with other Scouters on the matter where and when it has been appropriate to do so. I also no longer indulge in self-segregation the way that Michael Moore, Steven Spielberg, and the Scouting for All crowd have. That approach is not helpful, and only makes needed change take longer.

 

[skeptic]

Ahhhhhhhh!! Rational and common sense comments. How refreshing. Thanks!!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad, it's "never an issue" until it's an issue. If public schools still chartered units, kicking out an atheist would result in a lawsuit against the school, and probably the BSA (and maybe against individual leaders in the unit, too). First amendment rights are not something that can be ignored for convenience.

[Beavah]

Yah, Merlyn, whatever.

 

So now if you've been listenin' at all, yeh know what da real policy and practice of the BSA is, from those who really determine and practice it.

 

It's really not all that awful or unreasonable, is it?

 

Funny how when we get to know what other people really are like, it's a lot harder to vilify 'em.

 

That, too, is one of the things we teach in Scouting.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

We know many units routinely ignore those policies, either willfully or out of ignorance. I see that especially in cub units where the adults are often new to scouting, leadership turnover is fairly high, and parents are frequently looking for fun children's activities and not a whole lot more. And of course cub scouts are the largest membership group in scouting. So among the largest segment of the scout population, the membership policies are probably the least meaningful. In this regard, I can agree with you Beavah.

 

But that does not take away from the fact that the formal policies of the BSA still exist, and I do not fault Merlyn or others for continuing to challenge those formal policies, especially in the face of evidence that many units don't even adhere to those policies. The BSA is not well served by its existing formal policies, and ought to change them to match the realities on the ground that so many of us already acknowledge (most units are not going to turn away 6 year olds based on the DRP).

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah, when the real policy and practice of the BSA does not agree with the stated policy and practice of the BSA, doesn't that indicate something's wrong somewhere? Aren't people supposed to follow the official policy?

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn,

 

I think --- "when the real policy and practice of the BSA does not agree with the stated policy and practice of the BSA, doesn't that indicate something's wrong somewhere? Aren't people supposed to follow the official policy? " ---- pretty much describes everything in life except mother nature.

 

What you dsaid would apply to every form of government from local mayor to President of the United States.

It would apply to free market, retail and wholesale sales, The music industry as well as Tv and theatre.

It would describe the auto industry as well as insurance.

 

Pretty much across the board in hospital health care, medical billing, and health insurance.

 

Matter of fact, short of Mother Nature.. It would be hard to find any group, club, government or any form of organazation with people involved that actually followed written policy as intended.

 

 

Just an observation!

[Beavah]

What a lot of folks are doing is following the official policy, eh?

 

What Lisabob describes as the "formal" policy is a bit of an artifact born of the need to defend the organization against folks like you, Merlyn. We really do care about service to community, duty to country, and obligation to God. It's part of what we teach. We intend to continue teaching it. In almost all units, we do that in a very friendly, welcoming, low key way.

 

But, when confronted by angry "formal" challenges by outsiders who don't want us to teach about such duties or obligations in any way, shape, or form, it is necessary to defend ourselves with "formal" policies which clearly declare our values and principles. And, yah, to remove those who by firm word and action commit themselves to undermining those principles.

 

If whatever atheist club you belong to were faced with a bunch of evangelical Christians or Muslims who were determined to join, it wouldn't take long before yeh wrote up formal "policy" stating that such folks were not eligible for membership. But if a Christian dad named Beavah brought his son to your events and the family was respectful and helpful, I reckon you'd have no problem with the lad participating. He'd get an occasional dose of your atheist thought; durin' private conferences he might express his doubt of your position. Maybe you and that Beavah fellow would sometimes talk respectfully about perspectives over da campfire late at night. No big deal, eh?

 

That's da real position of the BSA. We care about duty to God as adult leaders, but part of that duty, part of what we call "reverent" is not crammin' it down other's throats. Our version of duty to God is kind and friendly and helpful and courteous. We will not abandon that sense of duty in da face of challenges, and we'll defend our mission when that's necessary. We want our adult leaders to reflect our values. But in 99.99% of da cases, the gays and atheists and agnostics and unchurched whose sons and daughters participate in our programs aren't interested in crammin' their view down our throats either, eh? And they're made welcome.

 

That's da real policy and practice. Always has been.

 

Beavah

 

[le Voyageur]

 

 

Sometimes, policies are wrong. As well as deeply entrenched and protected by the guardians of the status quo. Consider, we no longer burn heritics, keep slaves, dunk witches or prevent women from voting....time to change, and leave the 19th century behind

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah, if I had an atheist club OWNED and OPERATED by a public school, you can bet that students couldn't be kept out because they had the "wrong" religious views, whether they were "angry" or not.

 

And no, no matter how helpful you are, you can't join an actual atheist group that requires atheism (like American Atheists, which requires that so they can state they are an organization of so-many atheists). Some private clubs have membership requirements that they follow.

 

Plus, of course, your theoretical example doesn't match a lot of real-world examples where the BSA threw someone out AGAINST the wishes of everyone else in the unit and the unit's chartering organization.

 

Which is where your "real policy and practice" completely falls down. Nobody in James Dale's or Daryll Lambert's troops wanted them to leave, the national BSA forced them out.

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn..

 

Beavah brings up an awesome point. Daily practice vs formal wriiten policy.

 

Now, I suppose if I had to write up an official description of me( like product descriptions of item for sale), I'd have to at some point write down "Performs duty to God" in that description.

 

But what does that mean? What does it mean to you, the next guy, my bestfriend and what does it mean to me?

 

WEll, I have no idea or care what it means to you, the next guy or my best friend. Why? Because what it means to you is based on your opinion and slant and has nothing to do with what I think and believe.

But for the hell of it, I will say what my duty to God means to me:

 

It means living under good morals and ideals. It means treating people in the way I would want to be treated. It means not jumping into fights and starting fueds, but at the same time, standing up for myself and the little guy.

 

Likewise, to me, it also means I will not jusdge others based on face value or looks. I will not think of myself as better than others due to my race, ethnicity, welfare or locale. I will say I am better than those who spare no expense to harm others,but not better than the poor family down the road.

 

It means I live and treat others as I would want to be treated myself. It means realizing that all are equal and are equally allowed their rights to be different too.

 

Doing my duty to God is how I live, and honestly - in my beliefs - has nothing to do with attending a gathering in a bulding on a weekly basis or telling others how to live.

 

But here's the thing... As a member of BSA and as a registered leader, I am looking at the whole package and not just any one item. Same as my truck.I looked at different brandsa and models of trucks. I did not find a single truck that had all the features I wanted while excluding those I did not.

 

But I did find a truck that had enough of the most important features while not having too many of those I do not like!

 

Scouting, my line of work, my favorite online sites, etc.. are all this way. So is my neighborhood, favorite restaurant, my computer and so goes the list.

 

But just like all those things as compared to scouting.. I did not have to buy that truck. I could have bought another one or a car instead. I could shop at a different store or get another job elsewhere.

 

But since I did Join BSA of my own free will, I will aslo make the best of the good stuff while not transfixing on the bad.

 

By the way, to keep saying that BSA is dishonest is dishonest on your part. BSA does not deny it's policies. Just as you do not advertise your full name, physical address, telephone number, skin color, education or personal likes in movies- but you don't deny them either.

 

Especially since BSA does not use a 47 page application form.

 

 

BSA does not specifically advertise that parents cannot drink ber and drive drunk in the middle of a jamboree either, but I'm sure you wouldn't say that they were being dishonest when they call the cops on the first person who does just that.

 

BSA does not specifically say I cannot bring 4 trained attack dogs on each camping trip. ( go ahead, look it up) but you know what will be said when I try.

 

Here's the deal: You do not agree with BSA and it's policies. Okay, that's your right. But guess what, I do not agree with lots of groups, events, ideas and happenings. What do I do abouit it?

 

WEll, if they do not take place on my property uninvited and I am not forced to attend... I do nothing! It does not hurt me or personally affect me. But I am mature enough to know that the worl;d does not revolve around only my personal likes and dislikes. If I don't like it just because I don't...well tough crap for me!

 

There are clubs all around me. I do not HAVE to join them. I do not have to have the same favorite food as everybody else, Nor same favorite color, Favorite vehicle or sports team. But I will not try to prevent them from having those favorites no more than I expect them to stop me.