Atheism

[Gunny2862]

Sorry, possible side conversation: please feel free to spin it if necessary.

I'm slightly confused, how is Humanism necessarily different than Atheism?

Humanism is discussed as one of the possibilities in the spiritual section of the new online training course Physical Wellness at about the 25% point of section 3.

[Beavah]

And if public schools or law enforcement agencies, which cannot discriminate on the basis of religion, owned & operated AA private clubs, they should be stopped, don't you agree?

 

Nah, we don't agree, Merlyn. Dat's the point. Schools really do operate atheist clubs, or they should if the kids are interested. And if AA provides good materials for runnin' that type of club, they should charter with the AA to provide those services to their kids.

 

Because havin' kids find a club that they feel meets their needs for expression and belonging in school, and that teaches 'em to be thoughtful and skeptical and express their views in a respectful way serves a public purpose. It's not da State advocating atheism, it's the state providin' room for the expression of atheism within its institutions by such adherent taxpayers, and usin' the contributions of those adherents to enhance education.

 

Keepin' all of religion and atheism out of schooling is obtuse. It deprives kids of real knowledge of da values and beliefs of their fellow citizens; it denies them a richer understanding of how those beliefs shape public policy and history; it alienates good folks who would otherwise be advocates and funders of public education or colleagues in workin' for da common good of the country.

 

Yah, yah, there is a "balancing test" here, eh? We must be careful not to let open access become evangelical, either directly or incidentally. A school in a majority atheist/agnostic district should be on guard against that in da same way a school in a majority Christian or Muslim district should be, eh? My kids shouldn't be forced to attend da AA club, and da AA club shouldn't sponsor the school dance.

 

But what you're advocatin' isn't a balancing test, it's absolute exclusion with a scorched-earth policy, and we disagree with that regardless of whether it's da AA or the BSA you're excludin'. You pay taxes too; you have kids too. Your kids should have school-sponsored clubs that meet their interests and needs same as ours.

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah, I asked gonzo1 if he agreed. I already knew you didn't care about first amendment rights.

[evmori]

How is a public school owning a BSA charter a violation of my 1st Amendment rights?

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

 

I could personally care less if a school, funded with taxpayer dollars has any club the school or students wish. In fact, there is a high school in Cleveland, Georgia high school student wanted to have a gay friendly club. The administration decided to close all non-athletic clubs, but was later forced to have the club because of a suit brought by a student and ACLU to have a club for gay,lesbian and transgender people. The school was FORCED to have a club that the community (the adults ie the parents, principal and school board) didn't want.

 

I mentioned here a couple of years back that if a school wants to have an atheist club, good for them.

 

The problem with your main argument is that you and people like you believe there should be an absolute separation of church and state. Funny thing, when I read the constitution, I don't see it. I know, you're an attorney and you think you far better than me what "prohibiting the free exercise there of" really means too. It mean I get to practice whatever religion I want.

 

And for what it's worth, I pretty agree with Beavah's post above.

Have a nice day!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The problem with your main argument is that you and people like you believe there should be an absolute separation of church and state. Funny thing, when I read the constitution, I don't see it.

 

Check that first amendment.

 

I know, you're an attorney

 

I didn't know that. I thought I was a computer programmer.

 

and you think you far better than me what "prohibiting the free exercise there of" really means too. It mean I get to practice whatever religion I want.

 

And the first clause means that government entities like public schools can't penalize you for your religious views, like running private clubs that exclude students who have the "wrong" religious views.

 

But having this argument requires people who can understand the difference between a school-run club and a student-run club.

[Scoutfish]

Merlyn,

 

THE 1st AMENDMENT:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

 

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

 

or abridging the freedom of speech,

 

or of the press;

 

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,

 

and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 

Your arguement is null, void, and without merit.

 

The first amendment does not say that people cannot have independant and personal religion in any form of government, or government sanctioned, support or recognized institutions.

 

But it DOES say that I have the right to have my religion and you cannot take that right away. It also recognizes your right to not have religion and I cannot take that right away.

 

The government cannot establish a religion or appoint an official one. BSA allows each unit, group, troop, etc to practice their own pre (meaning non govrernment) established religion/ generic - non denominational religion in their own group.

 

Seperation of church and state only says that the government cannot create a religion and require the citizens of the Us to support, adhear to and follow that religion ( Think England before and during colonial times). It also means that the government cannot use any one religious priciple to enact laws and rule the country with said laws.

 

 

But I would like to point out that by trying to prevent BSA charters, you are indeed violating the 1st Amendment.

 

BSA is is not a mandatory membership group. You do not have to join,. I do not have to join. Now that I have joined, I can quit any time I want to , and do so without santions against me by the government. I also cannot be recalled by BSA at a later date.

 

Now, if you want to have a AA club at school and there are students as well as leaders who have the time, motivation and willingness to do so...have at it by all means. You as a tax payer have that right. And just because the school is supported by public ( meaning you and I) tax money, does not mean the government supports your ideals or group. It just means that a group of tax paying citizens wanted to use a public owned facility to have their group, club, cult, whatever you want to call it... at a building that they paid for.

 

If a school wants to sponsor a gay/lesbian club...go for it. If Pagans, Wicans, Star Trekians, Islams, Hindu's or Haley's Cometians want to have a get together...so be it.

 

I'd only draw the line at groups that force people to do something against their free will or cause harm. So no to white supremicist/ Klan type groups, sacrifical groups , etc..

 

 

[jhankins]

Any clubs are welcome on my alma mater's campus so long as they do not violate a code of conduct, have a teacher as a sponsor, and are willing to report their activities to the ASB.

 

That includes a gay club, glee club, christian prayer club, chess club, a club for atheists, a Varsity Team, and a Venturing Crew.

 

There, I said it.

 

I'm proud of the way all those organizations work together to support each other, too.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

Seperation of church and state only says that the government cannot create a religion and require the citizens of the Us to support, adhear to and follow that religion

 

You might want to look up Everson v. Board of Education (1947)

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

 

Public schools running a private club that excludes students solely due to their religious views are punishing those students for not having certain religious beliefs.

 

But I would like to point out that by trying to prevent BSA charters, you are indeed violating the 1st Amendment.

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

You might want to consider that the BSA itself dropped the charters. All the ACLU did was threaten to sue, just as I'm going to do about law enforcement charters.

 

Now, if you want to have a AA club at school and there are students as well as leaders who have the time, motivation and willingness to do so...have at it by all means.

 

See my previous note where I can only argue about this with people who can grasp the difference between a school running a group and students running a group. You haven't grasped this yet.

[evmori]

Scoutfish is right on the money Merlyn. The 1st Amendment says nothing about the church and state being separate. Never has.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Scoutfish writes:

So you are saying that "SOMEBODY" decided that Jefferson really meant but didn't actually write.

 

No, it's the supreme court justices stating what the first amendment means, and using a quotation from Jefferson to illustrate it. There are plenty of other cases where the supreme court uses phrases that aren't in the constitution but are used as shorthand, like "right to a fair trial" and "separation of powers," neither of which appear literally in the constitution.

 

Well I could just as easily say" Jefferson never intended that govermnet couldn't ptactice religion .

 

Good luck with that.

 

but it does say the government cant etsblish or respect a religion..which it is not doing. It also cannot prevent it, which is what you are hoping to do.

 

What are you babbling about now? I'm talking about preventing government entities from practicing religious discrimination.

 

And BSA dropping or not isn't any kind of ebforcement of the first Amendment.

 

The BSA dropped public school charters because they were clearly illegal.

 

 

 

WRONG! I have grasped it, I just thing your idea of it is inane.

 

No, you really haven't.

[AT1988]

I'm not going to say where I stand on this issue. And while some people would see a heated discussion of this sort as a negative thing, I do not.

 

People who argue over things such as these, do so because things like freedom and duty are more than abstractions.

 

People who argue over such things (regardless of which position they take) care about their country.

 

I'm glad to be associated with such a group.

 

Don't stop arguing, but as you do, just try to assume that the person you arguing with holds the same things dear as you do.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

the court in 1947 could had no more of an idea of what Jefferon's "intent" was

than you or me. The constitution is what it is. We have a private club and you seem

to really want in. You might be better off in a good old boys camping club.

 

Not really sure why you want in, other than to try to dismantle what we have.

That does't seem nice. We ahve requirement to join, much as AA has, I wouldn't dream of

forcing myself into you group, but wait a minute, I think I got an idea.

Hey everybody! Let's all try to join the American Atheists!

 

Here's the website: www.atheists.org

 

Let's be honest when applying for membership, let's tell them about our religious beliefs

and when we're denied, let's claim that our civil rights are being violated because we want

to join and spread the Good Word to of mankind. We have the right to do so and let's join now!

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

gonzo1 writes:

the court in 1947 could had no more of an idea of what Jefferon's "intent" was

than you or me. The constitution is what it is.

 

Yeah, well, until the court reverses itself, that's precedent.

 

We have a private club and you seem to really want in. You might be better off in a good old boys camping club.

 

No, you're a "private club" that's dishonest and still illegally chartering BSA units to government entities that can't practice religious discrimination.

 

Not really sure why you want in, other than to try to dismantle what we have.

 

You apparently have trouble reading. I've never said I "want in."

 

Let's be honest when applying for membership, let's tell them about our religious beliefs

and when we're denied, let's claim that our civil rights are being violated because we want

to join and spread the Good Word to of mankind. We have the right to do so and let's join now!

 

Go right ahead. You realize that AA is a genuine private organization that DOESN'T illegally have government entities practicing religious discrimination on their behalf, right?

 

You don't even know what the issues are.

[evmori]

What are you babbling about now? I'm talking about preventing government entities from practicing religious discrimination.

 

That babbling as you call it is the Constitution, Merlyn.

 

Ya know what's funny? The rights Atheists claim they have are the same rights everyone has. And a government entity chartering a BSA unit is in no way impinging on those rights.

 

Bad facts make bad law.(This message has been edited by evmori)