Atheism

[acco40]

While a Scoutmaster, I've asked many of the boys, during a scoutmaster conference - how they have been reverent. They usually say they've been to church or some such answer. I then ask them what does it mean to be reverent and teh vast majority have not idea what the phrase or word implies.

 

I simply state that to be "reverent" one need to revere. Now, what does it mean to "revere." For some, yes to worship a higher being (i.e. God), but for others, one could revere a mentor, a parent, etc. So, an atheist could easily satisfy that requirement.

[evmori]

The BSA approached public schools with an illegal contract; I've seen a number of BSA cases where school officials insisted atheists could join the units they chartered, so the BSA certainly didn't make it clear that public schools had to break the law to charter a unit.

 

Yeah an illegal contract. And the school district doesn't have any responsibility to read the contracts they sign I guess.

 

Let's remember, the BSA is legally discriminating.

[Engineer61]

The BSA has a specific "reverence" that it refers to...that being God.

[Eagledad]

>>I simply state that to be "reverent" one need to revere. Now, what does it mean to "revere." For some, yes to worship a higher being (i.e. God), but for others, one could revere a mentor, a parent, etc. So, an atheist could easily satisfy that requirement.

[sherminator505]

"How might an athiest Scouter evaluate a Scout's answer to the question "What does duty to God mean to you?" Or how about "What does 'a Scout is reverent?' mean?" What frame of reference would an athiest Scouter draw upon?"

 

I'm gonna throw this out once more, and I just KNOW someone will have a good answer this time!

[Eagledad]

Its a trick question Sherm, Scouters aren't atheist.

 

Barry

[sherminator505]

It's not a trick question, but let's address your point. Let's assume that we're talking about a hypothetical athiest Scouter that, say, Merlyn might envision. How might that hypothetical athiest Scouter evaluate a Scout's answer to the question "What does duty to God mean to you?"

[OldGreyEagle]

How does a Roman Catholic scouter evauuate a Buddhist scouts duty to Buddha? or vice versa

 

How does a Jewish Scouter evaluate a Muslim scout, or vice versa?

 

I think we have to have faith in the scouter that he/she will/would put aside personal feelings and listen to what the scout says and make a decision from there

 

You don't have to beleive in the God of the bible to have respect for anothers' belief that is contrary to your own belief

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Yeah an illegal contract. And the school district doesn't have any responsibility to read the contracts they sign I guess.

 

Ed, how exactly is a public school official supposed to realize that they are expected to apply a religious test to all potential members and exclude those who don't meet it, by the wording in a charter agreement?

 

Let's remember, the BSA is legally discriminating.

 

Remember, the BSA lies. They stated they would stop chartering to government entities, yet they continued to charter to law enforcement agencies.

 

Beavah writes:

There has never been a court ruling by an appellate court that public schools cannot charter BSA units as a matter of law.

 

Because schools dropped them like a hot potato as soon as issue came up. And the BSA didn't even attempt to argue that this would be legal. But I've also pointed out that the NJ supreme court Dale ruling essentially said that government entities would still be required to follow the NJ LAD even if the BSA could discriminate.

 

Merlyn is speculating that doing so would be found unconstitutional on first and fourteenth amendment grounds. That's his speculation. "Against the law" is a hyperbolic overstatement.

 

I am speculating that purposely nudging an asteroid into a collision course with earth would be considered murder if it hit and killed people, even though I doubt there is any law stating so.

 

Beavah, public schools can't practice religious discrimination.

Chartering a BSA "traditional" unit requires that the chartering org. practice religious discrimination.

 

Your argument is just pathetic. What's it for? Do you seriously think public schools will EVER charter BSA units again?

[Eagledad]

Baden Powell suggested scouts find God in the outdoor environment. I used to give a (sermon?) at Wood Badge called the Wow god. The point was we needed to provide the kind of experience where when a scout experiences something new in nature, they would react with Wow. There are somethings that just can't be explained in words, so a Baden suggest, we let nature do it for us.

 

I actually saw this a couple times, one was after we reach the top of Mount Phillips. The view from Mount Phillips will catch your breath, especially if there is snow up there as well. The other experience was at summer camp as the troop was walking back from the mess hall in the late afternoon. The trees full of cicadas, or locust, suddenly started singing very loudly. It was a wow moment for everyone and it was magical. I think they will carry the moment with them forever.

 

While we may try our best to talk about spirituality and god in scouting, I think the wow moments speak the best. Boys learn 90% of their behavior by watching others. We just need to act more than we talk.

 

Barry

 

[evmori]

Ed, how exactly is a public school official supposed to realize that they are expected to apply a religious test to all potential members and exclude those who don't meet it, by the wording in a charter agreement?

 

They ask questions before signing the contract????????? Is it me or is this nothing more than common sense??????

 

Remember, the BSA lies. They stated they would stop chartering to government entities, yet they continued to charter to law enforcement agencies.

 

And those law enforcement agencies are just as culpable as the BSA for signing the charter.

 

Call 'em both ways, Merlyn.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, I've pointed out before that school officials have testified in court under oath that they thought atheists could join units chartered by public schools. Given the BSA's deliberate and continued dishonesty in charters to government entities, I have no problem assuming that the BSA has always been dishonest in how it deals with government charters. You can continue to try and whitewash their actions, but their actions speak a lot louder than your words.

[evmori]

Yep assume. We all know what that gets!

 

Maybe the public school officials need to get their legal eagles to start reading these type of contracts before they sign them. Kinda makes you wonder what else they signed that they didn't read.

 

Unless it isn't in the contract, not knowing is only an excuse not a viable reason.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, the BSA is a least honest enough to not even attempt to issue charters to public schools now. And yes, I will be contacting whoever is the currect director of registration at the national BSA (Clarke Farrer or whoever it is now) and tell them to yank all the law enforcement charters immediately.

[evmori]

You do that Merlyn. And while you are at it, why don't you contact all those law enforcement agencies that you claim are chartering BSA units and ask them if they actually read the contract before they signed it. Then ask them why they signed it. When you are done with that you better get on to contacting all those public schools who use to charter BSA units & find out what other "illegal" contract they entered into because they didn't read them.