Atheism

[campcrafter]

What happened to YANN the thread originator?

 

Or is Yann really Merlyn? Or maybe Ed? Or someone who likes to watch them bicker?

 

cc

[campcrafter]

(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Just for clarity, skeptic is wrong. I've posted this before:

 

http://www.westley.org/bsa2008.pdf

 

These clearly state they are units in the "traditional scouting program," and given that most of the other organizations that are government entities have 0 chartered units, the Law Enforcement Agencies and Correctional Institutions stick out like sore thumbs.

[Beavah]

Yah, except there is such a thing as private correctional facility, eh? Lots of states are contracting out facilities.

 

Similarly, there are more private law enforcement and security folks in da country than public law enforcement.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010100665_pf.html

 

This is why yeh don't let your prejudices and agendas get in the way of your thinkin', legal or otherwise.

 

Beavah

[Pint]

Scouting is a global movement, and it is based on three core principles, that re reflected in the Promise (oath) and Scout Law that exists in every National Scouting Body, even those that arent aligned/ members of WOSM

Duty to God

Duty to others

Duty to self

the Purpose of Scouting is:

"The purpose of the Scout Movement is to contribute to the

development of young people in achieving their full physical,

intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual potentials as

individuals, as responsible citizens and as members of their

local, national and international communities."

 

This is taken from the constitution of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM)

you can read it in full here:

http://scout.org/en/information_events/library/fundamentals_of_scouting/constitution_of_w_o_s_m

 

Instead of complaining about the policy's of your national Scouting organisation with regards to relegion, or the denial of it, you should look beyond your local/regional/national boundary's and to the global side of things.

 

Also when looking into how a (nation) state funds different groups, how many other groups that receive tax payers money either directly or through grants are far less inclusive than Scouting? thats either direct or implied discrimination through the targeting of certain minority ( or other ) groups.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I doubt they're all private "law enforcement agencies", Beavah, but there's only one way to find out.

 

Pint, WOSM is hardly coherent on the issue of religion; they allow atheists in some, but not all scouting organizations, and similar to the BSA on a larger scale, there are scouting organizations in countries that cannot exclude atheists, but the WOSM apparently expects them to break the law. And "inclusiveness" is not a single dimensional value when it comes to taxpayer money and discrimination; religious discrimination against atheists isn't made legal by pointing to other taxpayer programs that might discriminate in other ways. It's just irrelevant.

[skeptic]

In regard to the stat chart from 2008: It certainly suggests that there are still crews sponsored by "traditional" BSA. Of course, one must wonder how, if all such groups were moved to Exploring. But, there are other possibilities. They might be poor reporting by councils; they may have since been moved, because they had yet to do so when this was compiled; they might be LDS crews that are actually Varsity, and are in LDS communities. Hopefully, the errors have mostly been fixed by now. But no matter what; the entire argument is selfish and petty, and really has little or no positive impact, as it just puts a good community program out of business. Of course, those that fight so hard to have their way really do not care, which tells us more about them than anything else. You all should be so "proud".

 

Okay; have fun. Ignoring this from on out.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

I'd say : "Until the Government mandates all male youth join BSA regardless of beliefs......argueing against BSA and it's policies ........It's just irrelevant!"

[evmori]

But the point, Merlyn, is you don't know if they are private or public law enforcement agencies. Just like your school list that wasn't all public schools but you refused to check into that because that would have lessened your you numbers.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Ed, but I'm really enjoyin' Merlyn's speculations on international law and da law of nations. His understandin' of da U.S. ain't that great, but his speculations about international legal issues are hysterical.

 

There are always folks who just hate others because of their beliefs, eh? In some parts of da world they strap bombs on their chests. In da U.S. they file suits and try to choke off funding by lobbying efforts. Different weapons, but exactly the same mentality.

 

Da BSA program is quite weak, and covers only a small fraction of the market. If Merlyn and his ilk had any savvy they could start a competin' outdoors and citizenship organization that could bury the BSA. But they can't get past their zealotry. Zealots always want to tear the other down rather than build somethin' valuable themselves.

 

B

 

[Scoutfish]

I wouldn't mind starting a compete program just from the buisnes side of it:

Patches, hats, neckerchiefs,shirts, pants, socks, etc.......

 

Whoops! let me translate that: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

LOL! What do you say Beavah? You want in?

[Scoutfish]

I wouldn't mind starting a compete program just from the buisness side of it:

Patches, hats, neckerchiefs,shirts, pants, socks, etc.......and you have to buy new ones each year or rank! ( evil laugh here)

 

Whoops! let me translate that: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

LOL! What do you say Beavah? You want in?

[Scoutfish]

I wouldn't mind starting a competing program just from the buisness side of it:

Patches, hats, neckerchiefs,shirts, pants, socks, etc.......and you have to buy new ones each year or rank! ( evil laugh here)

 

Whoops! let me translate that: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

LOL! What do you say Beavah? You want in?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

skeptic writes:

In regard to the stat chart from 2008: It certainly suggests that there are still crews sponsored by "traditional" BSA. Of course, one must wonder how, if all such groups were moved to Exploring.

 

Like I keep saying, the BSA is dishonest. Even after the BSA split Exploring into Exploring and Venturing, I was told that BSA officials were pushing Venturing on government entities instead of Exploring.

 

They might be poor reporting by councils; they may have since been moved, because they had yet to do so when this was compiled; they might be LDS crews that are actually Varsity, and are in LDS communities. Hopefully, the errors have mostly been fixed by now.

 

Or it might be deliberate fraud by the BSA.

 

But no matter what; the entire argument is selfish and petty, and really has little or no positive impact, as it just puts a good community program out of business.

 

Because, in skeptic's bizarro world, ending illegal discrimination against atheists is worth nothing.

 

Of course, those that fight so hard to have their way really do not care, which tells us more about them than anything else. You all should be so "proud".

 

It's a damn sight better than how you want the government to treat atheists.

 

Okay; have fun. Ignoring this from on out.

 

Yeah, yeah. Make a ridiculous blunder, offer a bunch of red herrings to "explain" how you might sort-of not be entirely wrong, opine for the Nth time how ending discrimination against atheists is a terrible crime against society, and bail out of the discussion.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah, are you saying no countries have laws against religious discrimination that apply to that country's WOSM scouting organization?

 

And are you also saying that every single law enforcement agency and correctional institution that charters a traditional BSA unit is privately held?

 

Then you have nothing to worry about, do you?