sherminator505 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 "Actually NJ, the legal right does make it "right". Now you may not emotionally agree with it, but legally it is factually right." Wasn't this the argument of the Pharisees, say, 2000 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 No Ed, YOUR opinion is not relevant to Dale's opinion. He doesn't even know you. And it is completely unreasonable for anyone to follow SECRET rules that they aren't told, as in Dale's case. I never knew honesty was a secret! Maybe that's the problem! Trustworthy, honest same thing. And the rules are not a secret. And just because Dale or anyone else doesn't know them doesn't make them null and void. Ignorance is no excuse. Not my opinion - fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Ed, you keep dancing around what Dale is supposed being "dishonest" about. He didn't consider being gay to be wrong or not morally straight, so he wasn't being dishonest. You're the one being dishonest here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Post-Dale, these rules became more widely known, I think. But there are still a LOT of people who take the BSA application at face value, and the Scout oath and law at face value, and nowhere in any of those does it specifically indicate that homosexual individuals cannot be members. And in re: Dale, this was probably even less clear, since my understanding is that a public spotlight had not been shone on this particular aspect of the BSA's membership policies prior to his being kicked out. It is disingenuous to suggest that someone is dishonest, or not trustworthy, for failing to abide by a policy that they had no idea existed, and about which reasonable people would have no clue, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Perhaps someone has more background on Dale's ultimate decision to make a public challenge to the dismissal from BSA. I am aware of a number of incidents that have been pursued in court, some of which got tossed or settled without trial, that were obviously "coerced" by outside sources looking for viable "victims" to advance their agendas. So, I wonder if James Dale might have initially simply accepted the decision as part of life, and gone on without a challenge? Who pushed the issue at the start, really? And, after the final SCOTUS decision, has Dale accepted it, and moved on; or is he still involved in the continuing attack mode of current challengers? Just Curious if anyone has "factual" evidence one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Ed, you keep dancing around what Dale is supposed being "dishonest" about. He didn't consider being gay to be wrong or not morally straight, so he wasn't being dishonest. You're the one being dishonest here. Merlyn, How am I being dishonest? Dale not knowing the rules doesn't absolve him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlFansome Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 You can read Dale's own words here: http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2000/07/17/dale/ Or, send him a message on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jamesdale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Ed, you're being dishonest in your accusation that Dale was dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Was everybody unable to access this forum for a few days, like I was? I see a gap of a few days in the posts, at least in Issues and Politics. But it's nice to see that a little roadblock like that does not stop the constant bickering, which just picks up where it left off. Ed, unlike Merlyn, I do not call you "dishonest", but you are wrong about this. There is no evidence that James Dale deceived anyone. Apparently, while he was a Scout, he was in the process of figuring out his own sexuality. There is no evidence that he was an "avowed homosexual" while he was a Scout. Even after he "came out", there was no "policy" that prohibited an "avowed homosexual" from being a leader. If you think there was, show it to us along with the date it was published. If it was just an internal memo, it was not a "policy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingagain Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 " I wonder if James Dale might have initially simply accepted the decision as part of life, and gone on without a challenge?" And as scouters would we really expect that from someone who has earned scouting's highest honor as a youth? If your challenged, meekly accept the result and move on? Give up? SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 It seems there was a server crash NJ. There is no evidence he was or wasn't an avowed homosexual while he was a Scout. Still gonna stick to my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Ed, You're a piece of work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizon Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Why would I join a group that has a rule that goes against my beliefs? 1) Their rule is not central to my life. 2) Their rule is not central to what the organization does. For me, both apply. I am straight, and to my knowledge my older son is too. My younger son has not hit puberty, so we will see. In the same sense, the gay issue is not central to any work I do in Scouting. It is out there, it bothers me that it is an issue, I am sure that it has a negative impact on Scouting in my area - but it truly holds minimal impact on my life. But that made me think of other groups I belong to that I don't agree with 100%. Some posters here keep on telling me to quit if the BSA's anti-gay bigotry is so bad. Well - the BSA is still an amazing organization, even if there are a couple of blisters due to hard boots with no give in them. I also belong to the Sierra Club. They do great environmental work - though they are idiots in their application of their beliefs in regards to hunting. I could quit, but I prefer to be the card-carrying lifetime NRA member in the local meeting instead. It opens their eyes, and might, over time, shift the attitudes of a few. I belong to the Presbyterian Church, which goes back and forth on ordaining gays and lesbians. My presence is another voice for inclusion. So why am in Scouts? It is a great youth organization for helping youngsters mature and grow on a proper path. I think there are some areas that could use some tweaking, but the central messages of the Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan are fantastic and I do my best to live them every day of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Ed, there's no evidence of a lot of things. I prefer to stick with the facts I know, and not make up some other facts that might fit some theory that I have. Or in the words of a character in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, life can be wretched enough without making up more of it. (That's a paraphrase.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Ed, You're a piece of work! Thanks Gern! I will consider that a compliment! NJ, Yup I know there is no evidence of a lot of things. That's when the facts get muddied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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