Policy on Sexual Orientation and Atheism

[sherminator505]

"No way, no how, are they/we going to want to send our children into the woods with a leader of indeterminate sexuality."

 

Indeterminate? How do you propose to find out exactly? A cosmopolitan-style quiz?

 

"BP - What are the logistical problems for having homosexuals in scouts?"

 

Interesting question. As we know they are there now and are simply not "avowed," perhaps the answer lies well within the boundaries of what we're doing now. I'm not convinced that anything special would be required.

 

"Ok,here's my point: Why not a Don't ask, don't tell attitude?"

 

That works to a point, but what happens when someone with an axe to grind shows up at a council office or National with a copy of a receipt that suggests that a Scout leader frequented an establishment known to be "gay" (keep in mind that this has in fact happened)?

 

I think it is very important to look critically at how we prosecute our policies, what our motivations are in doing so, and whether or not they are truly in line with our stated values as Scouters and as Americans.

 

 

[Pint]

"I'd really like to see some data or hear from scouters outside the U.S. as to whether this is a hot button topic in their scouting arenas? I know from what little interaciton I've had with multinational gatherings (we get a good amount of scouts up here from Mexico), that the gay, atheist, and co-ed issues presented by current BSA policy are a thorny subject in the greater World Scout Organization. BSA is viewed by the WSO as somewhat of a black sheep in the international scouting family because of these policy stances."

 

From my point of view, in the UK the homosexual issue is a non issue, as a part of the UK Scout associations equal opportunities policy we can not discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation. however these people are very much a minority group, however i think theres an anti discrimination law in the UK that makes it illegal to discriminate against homosexulas in the UK. all adults involved in scouting in the UK have a criminal records check (CRB )clearance, as well as other checks.

further reading UK policy organisation and rules (POR) chapter 2 key policys http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/71

and the life issues section factsheets, scroll down, its a long way..

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/

 

 

Atheists:

youth members are may still be searching for relegion, but to hold an adult leadership role this is the policy "With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to

appointment to a Leadership position." so Agnostics get in under that, as for full blown atheists they are welcome to come along and help, and they may become 'associate' members but they can not hold a full leadership position.

I was at a scout camp in Holland a few years ago, and the Scouts own service had a section for atheist Scouters - Holland is one of only a handful of countries where duty to God is an optional line in their promise/oath and therefore athesists are allowed to become full members.

 

 

Starting another Scouting movement/association independatly.

non aligned groups ( ie independant from the main UK Scout association and not a part of WOSM ) exist in the UK, however they are few and far between. most of them are as a result of dissagreements with the main UK Scouting association at various points during the history of Scouting.

The earliest split from mainstream Scouting occurred in 1909 with the British Boy Scouts and the British Girl Scouts, still opperating today but very few and far between as the Brittish boy and Girl Scouts, and latterly the Baden-powel Scout association (BPSA) who i beleive have as group operating in the USA, theres a list of all the Scout Associations opperating in the UK, together with their badges here http://www.pioneeresu.org.uk/badges/ScoutAssocs/ScoutAssocs.htm

[CalicoPenn]

Though it's really here nor there, when I hear (read) someone complaining about things being too PC, I translate it as "It's unfair - I can't be openly bigoted about other people anymore - bring back the old days when I could openly hate people different from me and didn't have to face any societal or legal consequences for my bigoted attitudes".

[BadenP]

Oak Tree

Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about. As far as Venturing is concerned it has always been open to girls, the LDS runs their own version of scouting, and a very different program with a very different intent from the standard scout program, and women are stilled viewed as second class in the LDS. Officially Venturing is open to both boys and girls, the fact that any unit can exclude females just goes to the inconsistency of National policy that makes exceptions for a specific religious group with a lot of power in the BSA policymaking. The fact that other biased groups have jumped on the exclusionary bandwagon to keep girls out of Venturing just points to the narrowmindedness of some of the other cultic religious groups in the BSA.

[asichacker]

FROM THE OP:

 

1. The objections of the LDS church is based on the potential for homosexual leaders in positions that are both "superior" in relation to their unit and out of their total control. (ex. District scouters and above)

 

Now that is an interesting concept....locally, I have been warned by more than one former scout and scout parent, to avoid interaction with the LDS based troops, because over the years that have taken men you have had issues with sexual misconduct and placed them in leadership positions in troops as part of a rehab.(This message has been edited by asichacker)

[Oak Tree]

The way the BSA is structured, district leaders are definitely *not* superior to units. The district leadership can't really tell your unit how to do anything. The unit reports to the chartered organization's institutional head.

[Oak Tree]

BadenP writes:

 

Female Scoutmasters ... are incapable of leading

 

but as for chartering organizations that want single-gender Venturing Crews, they are

 

biased ... exclusionary ... narrowminded ... cultic

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

[JoeBob]

BadenP:

I agree totally with "putting all the PC crap aside (female scoutmasters) just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about."

 

That also sums up my attitude towards homosexual leaders: putting all the PC crap aside homosexual scoutmasters just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about.

 

Why complicate it?

[le Voyageur]

Oak Tree

 

You're comparing orange marmalade to apple jelly

 

BP was a 19th century Brit of the Victorian era, and a member of the military gentry who's attitude toward women are not what they are today.

It's impossible to strike a comparison with BP's social class where bigotry, sexism and racism were part of their life's weave, with today's Americans. We've left that century behind, or at least trying to.....

 

 

[Eagle92]

BP,

Let's not forget that not only can a Venturing Crew be all male, but it can also be all female! yep i've seen one all female venturing crew, and they really kicked butt and took names at competition, including s few patrols that were older and had been to Philmont! To add insult to injury, they were a new crew, being formed a few months prior to the competition.

 

Come to think of it, i just realized that since they won, Crews are no longer invited to compete.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[BadenP]

Oak Tree please DO NOT misquote me, I said if you read my post

"Not that they (female scoutmasters) are incapable of leadership... it just goes contrary to what boy scouting is all about."

 

As far as the narrowmindedness and bigotry of venturing crews not allowing girls(outside of the LDS) ,even if they have that option, does indeed show those characterstics when the National policy is "Venturing is a program open to all males and females between the ages of 14 and 21." going contrary to that OFFICIAL statement does indeed show a definite bias.

 

OakTree, I suggest you either read the posts throughly before criticizing in error or take a comprehensive reading course to learn how to interpret and understand what you read.

[BklynEagle]

Oak Tree

 

BadenP actually writes "Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about." (Emphasis added for effect by your's truly)

 

He doesn't say that women can't lead, but that he thinks that it's a "bad idea". I, for one, happen to agree with him (How about that? ) Not that I lack faith in a woman's ability to lead a troop, but because I think it creates some potential problems. Specifically, I'm concerned about the possibility of a helicopter mom (Not the female SM, mind you, but another female) trying to go on a camping trip and causing us real consternation by babying her brat (the Scouts with helicopter moms do seem to have an inordinate tendancy towards behavioral issues) and generally making the trip unbearable.

 

As far as the gay and atheist issue goes, here's my take:

 

BSA has a "Duty to God" provision - Atheist say there is no god - Therefore, they don't fulfill the requirements for membership and cannot join. Pure and simple. If you can't meet the requirements, you can't enjoy the benefits.

 

With regards to sexuality, frankly I don't like overt displays of sexuality in public. Period. I don't like seeing a guy and a girl making out, I don't like seeing two guys making out, I frankly am not fond of seeing two pigeons making out. I'm of the opinion that ANY dicussion of a sexual nature should be verboten. As a Committee Member, I'll be the first to call for the discipline and/or dismissal of any leader who publicly engages in such discussion, regardless of whether the topic was the size of a male's organs or of a female's bust. NJCubScouter is, in my opinion, not wrong when he says that "it might be said that the BSA policy requires that leaders be of 'indeterminate sexuality'."

 

I've been on camping trips with individuals who I've known full well are homosexuals, but who keep it to themselves. They still were quite knowledgeable about varied Scout Skills, and conducted themselves in a manner that was fully consistant with that of a mature adult. I've also been on camping trips with individuals who I've known full well are heterosexuals, but who don't shut up about it, don't know a damn thing about Scout Skills, and cannot be described as mature. Geuss who I wouldn't mind going camping with again?

 

Keep it to yourself, and you won't have any problems with me.

 

Addendum - Apparently BadenP beat me to the punch while I was typing.(This message has been edited by BklynEagle)

[OldGreyEagle]

Let's be sure we don't confuse BadenP the poster with B-P The Founder

 

on this website there are recrodings of B-P, The Founder

 

http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/speeches.html

 

Listen to the first one, titled "BP Gives a Talks to Scouts". Almost at the very end he asks for "young men, and even young women to come forth to be scoutmasters"

 

Apparently he was more enlightened than some of us today

[Pint]

Quote from BadenP...

"Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about"

 

Quote from le Voyageur

"BP was a 19th century Brit of the Victorian era, and a member of the military gentry who's attitude toward women are not what they are today. "

 

If the above were true then why on earth would Scouting and Robert Baden-Powell aprove of female Scout masters in 1913 at the 1st Herrington Scout group ( and probably a few others), see this website for the early history of 1st Herrington Scout group

http://www.herrington-heritage.org.uk/scouting.html

 

quote below form the website above.

 

"ASM Joe Allen was in charge from 1912-1913. Miss Jane Helen McLaren was first official ScoutMaster. She was one of the first woman Scout leaders in the country. The McLarens came from Scotland and lived at the stackyard, New Herrington. As a farmer's daughter Miss McLaren was accepted as a leader (farmers were people of standing, miners were not). The first inspection under SM McLaren was in October 1913. As ladies had to be accompanied Miss McLaren had a companion, Miss Phillips, who went to camp etc. with her. "

 

I find this quote "Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about" incredibly offensive especially towards all the countless Female Scouters who have been involved in Scouting around the world since the very early days.

[BadenP]

OGE

 

Good to see you keeping a neutral moderator stance, not, your definition of what is enlightened versus common sense is a matter of only your opinion and nothing else.