26 members of congress urge BSA to end their discriminatory policies

[OldGreyEagle]

First perhaps we need to define our terms. I beleive Sin is an offense to God. I do not understand how a belief system can have no sin. Any belief system has a code of conduct if you will.

 

A way to live your life, when you depart from that code and commit an act that is in opposition to that code it may be called a transgression, an error in judgement, a mis-step but why is calling it a sin anathema to you?

 

How do you define stealing? Cheating? Murder? Fraud? (as in lieing) What do you call these behaviors and how do you differentiate them from sin?

 

I realize this post is replete with my own prejudices, I can't seem to shake them(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[evmori]

There just isn't a concept of sin in my religion. Good and evil, yes - and free will choice to decide if one will follow a good or evil path - but sin just doesn't exist. At least for me.

 

Evil, sin same thing different name. They are synonymous. So if evil exists so does sin.

 

And if I'm not mistaken, we all have free will regardless of our beliefs.

[acco40]

Some concepts are very difficult to grasp by some. Examples:

 

1) Homosexuality is a behavior.

2) People are born with original sin.

3) Predestination.

4) Normal is "right." (

 

Are celibate folks heterosexual or gay? Are infants capable of sinful behavior? Is my destiny preordained? I'm a sinister person, i.e. left handed, so don't tell me normal=right, abnormal=wrong!

 

Again, take my "pork eaters" reference. Many believe that behavior is sinful, yet the BSA makes no attempt to refuse membership to pig eaters who don't follow the Truth. Why?

 

My biggest complaint about how the BSA treats gay folk is that they don't condone "actions", they condone sexuality itself, something I don't feel individuals control. One may control their actions and behavior but not necessarily their feelings and desires. As Jimmy Carter once stated to Playboy, I lusted in my heart, something many of us, gay and straight, can relate to.

[CalicoPenn]

OGE - that's my understanding of sin as well - a transgression against God. (I don't know how well the concept of sin and evil merge - I can certainly see where there are sins that would be considered evil - but are all transgressions against God really evil? Sure - stealing might be both a sin and be evil (I suppose I define evil as an action taken that does, or may potentially, harm others) but does working on the sabbath, which might be considered sinful as it's a transgression against God really reach the level of evil?).

 

My religion doesn't recognize that one can transgress against the Goddess and/or God. Rather, we recognize the dual natures of the Goddess and/or God. Not that the opposite of the Goddess is the God but that both the Goddess and God are two distinct entities containing both the good and the evil (in essence, there is no separate God and Devil as in many religious traditions but that God and Devil are two sides of the same person). The choice then is which side does one align themselves - with the good or with the evil? If the Goddess and/or God contain both sides in one being, then it's pretty much impossible to sin (as I understand the term) because no matter which path you take, you honor the God and/or Goddess. No transgression, no sin.

 

So, if you steal, you honor the evil (or dark) nature of the Goddess and/or God. If you don't steal, you honor the good (or light) nature of the Goddess and/or God. Does that make sense?

 

I think perhaps that the concept of sin only works, or works best, if the God in question is a single natured being rather than a dual-natured being.(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

[Beavah]

but does working on the sabbath, which might be considered sinful as it's a transgression against God really reach the level of evil

 

Yah, sure. To the extent that it harms the self, by not takin' a break from work, by not prioritizing a relationship with God in one's life.

 

Harming yourself through drug use, sexual promiscuity, sodomy, failin' to maintain a relationship with God, lusting after pornography, and the rest I'd call sinful even if it didn't harm anyone else. It ultimately harms others too, of course. We are interconnected, eh? People care about us; we (should) care about them. Harming ourselves hurts those that care about us, and by omission hurts those that we should care about. When you're absorbed in yourself yeh can't help others as you should.

 

We Christian types don't limit "evil" to just not harming others, eh? That's a fairly selfish notion of evil, one that doesn't impose an obligation on da individual to do anything positive. We feel it's also sinful if yeh don't help others when you can. Whenever yeh fail to help the most wretched of humanity you fail to help the Christ.

 

I can't make out the God/Goddess good/evil thing you've got goin' on there, eh? But it seems like yeh want to teach children to follow the Good / Light / whatever side of things. In that case "sin" is choosing not to do good when you are faced with that choice.

 

If there is a "good" deity, then sin is choosin' not to do the will of that good deity.

 

If yeh think it's just fine to tell scouts to honor the deity(s) by doing evil, then I'm afraid we have a problem, and I don't reckon I want any kids around you while they're still of an impressionable age. That's also the reason why folks are uncomfortable with their kids around "avowed" homosexual leaders, eh? Just a bad example while they're too young to deal with such things in people that we're tellin' the kids to trust.

 

Beavah

 

[WAKWIB]

Well said, Beavah. Even in the Beavah dialect.....

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Calico, I may say this wrong, so I apologize up front.

 

So, if stealing honors the dark side of a God or Goddess, then there isnt anything wrong with stealing. How can you live in a society such as the US where stealing is deemed wrong?

 

This is a concept I am struggling to understand

[acco40]

If yeh think it's just fine to tell scouts to honor the deity(s) by doing evil, then I'm afraid we have a problem, and I don't reckon I want any kids around you while they're still of an impressionable age. That's also the reason why folks are uncomfortable with their kids around "avowed" homosexual leaders, eh? Just a bad example while they're too young to deal with such things in people that we're tellin' the kids to trust.

 

That's the crux of the problem. As I interpret your communication above, you lump avowed homosexual leaders with "evil." But not pork eaters, masterbaters, those who don't honor the sabbath, uncircumsized males - and the list goes on and on. My beef is that the BSA has made a value judgment on being (not doing) a homosexual and not a myriad of other things that various common religious sects deem "evil." Why?

 

[evmori]

OK so since these 26 stellar Americans made their urgings public, has anything else been done?