26 members of congress urge BSA to end their discriminatory policies

[evmori]

chesed v'rachamim is a common topic. But how does two people of the same sex living together translate into God condoning homosexuality?

[Eamonn]

My great hope is that one day the BSA will change the policy it has about homosexuals.

Over time I have altered my position on this a lot.

I used to think that it was maybe OK if gays and lesbians kinda just lived their life-style and didn't make a fuss.

To some extend I still think that people who choose to "Play the card". Be it the "Race Card", "Religious Card" are a little over the top.

I hope that in my daily life that I don't treat anyone any different just because they are male or female, black or white, Christian or non-Christian, gay or straight.

My dealings with my God are mine.

How I choose to interpret the Good Book or which Good Book I choose to go with? Is also up to me.

I still talk with a very strong English accent, after living here for a quarter of a century. I can't and don't try to disguise the fact that I'm not an American, no more than a black person can disguise the fact that they are black.

I don't believe that it is right for anyone to provide me special treatment just because I'm not an American. I don't think we need to treat anyone and differently.

This includes gays and lesbians.

Still gays and lesbians have every right to openly state that they are what they are.

While I would hope not to judge others, it seems a little daffy that we would not allow two loving parents to join our organization, but have no problem allowing a guy who out and about cheating on his wife.

If we really do believe in living by the golden rule? How would we feel if we were being discriminated against?

Ea.

[Eagledad]

>>While I would hope not to judge others, it seems a little daffy that we would not allow two loving parents to join our organization, but have no problem allowing a guy who out and about cheating on his wife.

If we really do believe in living by the golden rule? How would we feel if we were being discriminated agains

[Rooster7]

I try not to judge others...but I do judge behavior. And while the World likes to explain away all of our differences as a matter of genetics, I often see those differences as a matter of choices - which are based on our understanding of Truth. And unlike the World, I do not believe that there are multiple Truths. I believe there is one Truth - and it should guide our morality and behavior. Or said another way, I do not believe that there are multiple Truths, which lead us on diverged paths to different but equal codes of morality. This way of thinking is a sham, and a deceitful teaching which enables individuals to ignore if not outright mock God.

 

The Truth that I believe in is a Loving and Righteous God. This is the God of the Bible. Those who ignore Him, try as they may, will eventually understand that He cannot be ignored. I do not say these things to intimidate or to be hurtful. I say it, because I believe it is the Truth that is presented in the Bible, in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. Fortunately for all of us, God forgives and loves those who seek Him...and His Kingdom is open to all who believe in His name. That's the Truth that I believe. It's in my head and it's there to stay. It doesn't have to affect anyone here. I am only repeating what I believe is taught in the Bible. It may rankle some, but it ought not to. If it does, then I have to ask why. Are you seeking discontent? Why argue against a personal belief which has no relevance in your life? Or perhaps God is trying to tell you somethingas Al Gore might say, perhaps an inconvenient Truth is being revealed?

 

[Trevorum]

Hello Rooster. Good to see you again.

[NJCubScouter]

Hey, look who's back.

 

Since this thread is about BSA policy, and not about peoples' beliefs in general, it needs to be pointed out that BSA policy is not based on (or perhaps more accurately, it's not supposed to be based on) the Bible. So we don't even need to get to the issues of which version of the Bible (Jewish, Roman Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox) you prefer, which interpretation of any particular passage you prefer, whether you take all or part of the Bible literally, figuratively, symbolically, or whatever else, and many other choices. From past posts, I think I know what Rooster's choices are on these subjects, at least as far it relates to whether "an avowed homosexual cannot [or can] be a role model for the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law." But that has nothing to do with BSA policy.

[Rooster7]

Hey Trevorum/NJ - just stopping by for a short visit.

 

My point, as it may be relevant to BSA policy, is this... We (Scouters and those who support the organization) should support BSA policies that are consistent with Truth. Now, I'm sure there are many who disagree on what Truth is...but shouldn't we seek truth in all we do and say? Thus, I support the BSA policy as it stands today because it is consistent with the Truth as I know it.

 

And to those who would attempt to nullify my opinion, claiming my faith shouldnt enter into the equationI say hogwash. That is, we all have different backgrounds (different faiths, experiences, etc.), which drive our perceptions about Truth. For me, my faith is the primary source of my wisdom and perception of Truth. So I am but one voicebut my one voice is joined with others and our voices are just as legitimate as those who views are not driven by faithor as those driven by a different faith. Hopefully, collectively, well figure it out together. Hopefully, we support organizations, vote for leaders, create laws, and build a society centered on Truth. If we dont, then our society and its future will be randomand the meanest dog will win the day.

 

And now it comes back to my faith. Because even if my voice and others like me are ignored, we have a future that is not reliant on the ever changing values of society. Our future is not limited to this earth. Our future is with an eternal and omnipotent God.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

So I am but one voicebut my one voice is joined with others and our voices are just as legitimate as those who views are not driven by faithor as those driven by a different faith.

 

and

 

Because even if my voice and others like me are ignored...

 

Rooster, the legitimacy of your voice is not questioned, and it is not your voice that is ignored, particularly in the BSA. I would love to see a BSA in which the views and voices of those who favor (for example) a local option on the gay issue were given as much attention or legitimacy as yours -- or even any at all. You and people like you are in control of the BSA, Rooster. You're in charge! And yet you seem to be complaining. Cheer up! You run the show! (Though, I guess technically, you yourself don't actually have any current connection to the BSA. But those who agree with you on this issue run the show.)

 

Rooster also says:

 

Hopefully, collectively, well figure it out together. Hopefully, we support organizations, vote for leaders, create laws, and build a society centered on Truth. If we dont, then our society and its future will be randomand the meanest dog will win the day.

 

I don't want to impugn the motivations or internal emotions of any particular person here, and I don't want to call anyone "mean"... but... one might argue that the problem of the "meanest dog winning the day" is what has already happened, at least on the "gay issue" within the BSA. A policy change such as I advocate would make things a little less "mean", in my opinion.

 

[acco40]

Gay Scout leaders I can live with. It's those damn pork eaters that stick in my craw!

[Eamonn]

Putting aside the policy stuff for a minute!

My big problem is that I never know what is right for other people.

I do a good job most times of knowing what is right for me.

A lot of the time things are easy for me, I don't have to worry about making the choice.

I have never had to steal or cheat to get food.

I'm not gay, so that for me is not an issue.

The truth is that I have no idea what it is like to be gay.

I really do try my best to live up to being a practicing Roman Catholic.

However just before OJ was born a blood test showed something was wrong. We (HWMBO and I ) Had to go to a hospital in Pittsburgh for a special test and genetic counseling. Waiting from Friday till Monday was the longest weekend ever. I was faced with what to do if the child we had wanted was going to be born with something wrong? We were still early enough along that abortion was an option.

I so desperately wanted a child that I was not willing to allow anything to get in the way. HWMBO was a little less certain.

As things turned out she was a lot further along than had first been thought.

But my view on abortion was really tested.

While I still believe that this isn't something for me, I can see why it might be for others.

I think for me it would be a sin, but it would be my sin. How it fits for others? I just don't know.

 

I enjoy talking and discussing things with older youth.

I try really hard not to preach. I'm more than OK to let them know that I don't have all the answers. I can and do explain where I'm coming from and why at times I seem to be contradicting, myself and my values.

Many times I let them know that I think I have been blessed because something hasn't happened to me. I for example, never got into drugs. I wish I could say that there was some strong morel reason for this. But the truth is I was scared that I might like them too much. So I never went there. Because I didn't I never had to steal or do nasty stuff to feed a bad habit.

 

I'm not clever or wise enough to know if being gay is a choice? I know that I enjoy the company of other men, I can look at a man or a young Lad and think that he is good looking, but I have never wanted to go to bed with another male and have sex with him. Much the same can be said about woman, I can look at them but I'm more than OK to remain faithful to my wife.

 

At present I have a very effeminate gay male inmate working in my department. His name is Fred but he likes to be called Shirley.

I have got used to having him and his ways?? Around and for the most part don't take any notice.

I think that maybe he could or might be the poster child for whatever an "Avowed Homosexual" might be??

I really don't think policy or no policy that most of the boys I have known would ever want this guy as their leader. He is just so over the top.

Still I'm not so sure that two guys who set up house together and do what ever it is that they do, would do any real harm.

I know that when I'm dealing with Scouts the last thing on my mind is my sex life.

Maybe after 27 years of being married myself and HWMBO are not so hot to trot as we maybe once were? But even when we were first married and I was a SM, I never wore my sexuality on my sleeve.

 

Barry,

I think you know how highly I respect you.

I thank you for the kind words.

However you post:

"First, we have several families with gay parents in our District and they are active with their units. They just arent registered."

I might not be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but this to me seems like a double standard? The take home message is very jumbled.

If we fear that gay parents set a bad example? Allowing them to be active??

I'm not sure (Again!!) How I'd explain that one if asked by a 17 year old Sea Scout.

 

I'm unwilling to put down or knock anyone who has strong religious beliefs. In many ways I'm happy for them, happy that they have found the answer that they believe in and can hold too.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Eamonn,

 

I just wanted to say thanks. Especially on these difficult topics, I often find myself nodding in agreement, or at least appreciation, as I read what you have written. It is a refreshing take on the way a lot of people express their religiously based beliefs, to hear that many people of faith still struggle with these kinds of issues. I think that if more people were totally honest about the ambiguities, doubts, and difficulties we face when trying to live our faith(s) in our daily lives, we would probably see more brotherhood and peace in the world, as a result. And maybe fewer kids would be turned off to organized religion by absolutist adults who aren't willing to acknowledge those struggles and ambiguities.

[acco40]

Mother Teresa struggled with her faith -a lot! Only those who have never had any faith can claim they never struggled.

 

My wife is RC, I'm not. For our last child, we had genetic counseling - mom to be was 38. I asked my wife, if you were not going to "do anything" - i.e. consider abortion, in response to the tests - which do carry a very slight risk - why do the tests at all? I think (at least publicly) very analytically. She stated that she just wanted to know.

 

My gut feel was that at least publicly, my wife was not allowing herself to say she would consider any alternatives but as Eamonn states, one really never knows until one has had the experience how one would react.

 

The outcome is we had a healthy girl (thank God!).

 

I wonder if there was a "sexual orientation" test for fetuses, what many prospective parents would do. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[CalicoPenn]

Funny you should mention that Acco - there is a movie from 1997 that asks just that question. A mother to be gets a genetic test, discovers her baby will be gay, and struggles to decide if she should abort the child or not. To make it even more dramatic, her own brother is gay, and HIV positive.

 

I don't figure the Catholic Church would change their position on abortion if such genetic testing were possible - they have that old "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner" non-stand stand thing going for them. But I'd sure like to be there when the religious right leader's heads explode as they try to wrap their small minds around the conundrum.

[Rooster7]

NJ

 

You wrote:

 

I would love to see a BSA in which the views and voices of those who favor (for example) a local option on the gay issue were given as much attention or legitimacy as yours -- or even any at all. You and people like you are in control of the BSA, Rooster. You're in charge! And yet you seem to be complaining. Cheer up! You run the show!

 

Okay, for the day that might be true. But I have no reason to cheer up as I see our society day after day leaning further and further to left. Yes, we swing back and forth, but in the long run the swings seem to go longer to the left, and the so-called middle moves with it. I prefer the morality of several generations ago (of course, minus the racism that some folks embraced back then). So while people like me may run the show today, I dont see that show lasting for very long. To many on this board, Im sure thats reason for celebration.

 

Acco40

 

You wrote:

 

I wonder if there was a "sexual orientation" test for fetuses, what many prospective parents would do.

 

I scoff at the idea of such a test. Even if you could show me that some are born with the propensity, it would not legitimize the behaviorno more so than a pedophile or an alcoholic born with a propensity to behave as they do. That said; I dont envision such a test influencing very many parents one way or the other. Those who believe homosexuality is normal, will not be influenced. Those who believe that it is abnormal, will adhere to their moral beliefs. If they believe in the sanctity of life, they will embrace that life. If they don't believe in the sanctity of life, then they're likely to find any excuse to do as they please.

 

CalicoPenn:

 

If there was a pre-birth test for sexual orientation, I think the religious rightor at least the Christian Evangelicals that I know would not allow the results of such a test to influence their decision. They would love the child like any other child. But that does not mean they would accept the so-called orientation as normal.

 

I know your mind is much bigger than mine, but I still believe in the existence of sin. Not just right and wrong as society chooses to define it, but rebellion against God sinthe me first, God second kind of sin. There are plenty of examples of that kind of sin that has nothing to do with homosexuality but homosexuality is a choice and its a choice against Gods design for us. So to you and others that may seem restrictive and narrow minded, but I believe it to be the Truth.

 

But as NJ advised me, cheer up. While your side may not have total control yet, theyre gaining ground everyday. I see a day fast approaching where homosexuals will not only be accepted, but celebrated. Yahoo.

 

[CalicoPenn]

Rooster - not a question of whose mind is bigger - you always bring an interesting point of view to a discussion and make me think.

 

No, in this case it's a matter of belief. There just isn't a concept of sin in my religion. Good and evil, yes - and free will choice to decide if one will follow a good or evil path - but sin just doesn't exist. At least for me. But I try not to denigrate anyone who does believe in sin, or in any other practices of faith and belief (a Scout is Reverent, after all).

 

What I do oppose, however, is folks trying to impose their particular views of religious belief and faith on others with differing views of religious belief and faith - through force of will, of law, or of violence (including terrorism & war). (And please don't assume I believe this is what you, or any other posters on the forum are doing - but I do reserve the right to claim that people like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Bill Donahue, etc. are doing just that).

 

That's why I support local (read Unit Sponsor) option on the question in the first place.